|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Things really messed up for Iraqi women |
 |
|
| Quote: |
The insurgents have been driven out of her southwest Baghdad neighborhood, but the 30-year-old shop assistant is still frightened. A year ago Al Qaeda in Iraq ruled the streets outside her home, and Mahdi Army militia units kept the area under relentless attack. Now the Iraqis who helped get rid of the killers are the ones who scare her. The Americans imposed order a few months ago by recruiting and paying local men to turn in the names of suspected jihadists. Similar armed groups have popped up all around the city. Each has its own bizarre rules; some threaten to kill women who don't wear veils in public. The shop assistant is in mourning for her brother, who was killed last May, but she's asking for trouble if she wears black more than three days running. According to the new enforcers in her neighborhood, anyone who dresses in mourning is committing blasphemy by questioning the will of God.
|
| Quote: |
Some tribal leaders are more egalitarian than others. In Baghdad's Adhamiya district, the local women's college is bustling with students, even with the Sahwa in charge. Times are tougher in Anbar's provincial capital, Ramadi, where tribal troops allow women to work but not to go without headscarves, and polygamy is reportedly on the rise. Women rarely venture out of their homes now in rural Sahwa areas like Arab Jabour, south of Baghdad.
In Anbar, the Sahwa movement's birthplace, tribal leaders have taken full control. "They have their own personal fiefdoms, and they answer to no one," says Isobel Coleman, a women's rights specialist for the Council on Foreign Relations. "The tribal groups may not be directly affiliated with Al Qaeda, but they're no less conservative." That may be an exaggeration: the jihadists forced girls into marriages, closed schools and killed indiscriminately. But tribal values are more medieval than those enshrined in the Iraqi Constitution�and this time the gunmen have the backing of the U.S. military. Some fear that worse is coming. "I can see in the eyes of some of them that they have something to say to us unveiled women," says Samara Ali, 27, a library worker at Baghdad University. "I think that they are waiting for a proper time to speak out."
|
http://tinyurl.com/5pno3g |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The more I learn about Iraq, the more I understand why it took a brute like Saddam to run it. I never particularly liked the man but I wonder what history will say about him in the long run if Iraq ends up another completely failed state like Afghanistan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting bit of history on Iraq:
| Quote: |
I am deeply concerned about Iraq. The task you have given me is becoming really impossible. Our forces are reduced now to very slender proportions. The Turkish menace has got worse; Feisal is playing the fool, if not the knave; his incompetent Arab officials are disturbing some of the provinces and failing to collect the revenue; we overpaid �200,000 on last year's account which it is almost certain Iraq will not be able to pay this year, thus entailing a Supplementary Estimate in regard to a matter never sanctioned by Parliament; a further deficit, in spite of large economies, is nearly certain this year on the civil expenses owing to the drop in the revenue. I have had to maintain British troops at Mosul all through the year in consequence of the Angora quarrel: this has upset the programme of reliefs and will certainly lead to further expenditure beyond the provision I cannot at this moment withdraw these troops without practically inviting the Turks to come in. The small column which is operating in the Rania district inside our border against the Turkish raiders and Kurdish sympathisers is a source of constant anxiety to me.
I do not see what political strength there is to face a disaster of any kind, and certainly I cannot believe that in any circumstances any large reinforcements would be sent from here or from India. There is scarcely a single newspaper - Tory, Liberal or Labour - which is not consistently hostile to our remaining in this country. The enormous reductions which have been effected have brought no goodwill, and any alternative Government that might be formed here - Labour, Die-hard or Wee Free - would gain popularity by ordering instant evacuation. Moreover in my own heart I do not see what we are getting out of it. Owing to the difficulties with America, no progress has been made in developing the oil. Altogether I am getting to the end of my resources.
I think we should now put definitely, not only to Feisal but to the Constituent Assembly, the position that unless they beg us to stay and to stay on our own terms in regard to efficient control, we shall actually evacuate before the close of the financial year. I would put this issue in the most brutal way, and if they are not prepared to urge us to stay and to co-operate in every manner I would actually clear out. That at any rate would be a solution. Whether we should clear out of the country altogether or hold on to a portion of the Basra vilayet is a minor issue requiring a special study.
It is quite possible, however, that face to face with this ultimatum the King, and still more the Constituent Assembly, will implore us to remain. If they do, shall we not be obliged to remain? If we remain, shall we not be answerable for defending their frontier? How are we to do this if the Turk comes in? We have no force whatever that can resist any serious inroad. The War Office, of course, have played for safety throughout and are ready to say 'I told you so' at the first misfortune.
Surveying all the above, I think I must ask you for definite guidance at this stage as to what you wish and what you are prepared to do. The victories of the Turks will increase our difficulties throughout the Mohammedan world. At present we are paying eight millions a year for the privilege of living on an ungrateful volcano out of which we are in no circumstances to get anything worth having. |
The spineless liberal defeatist who wrote those words? Winston Churchill, to David Lloyd George, 1 September 1922. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| The more I learn about Iraq, the more I understand why it took a brute like Saddam to run it. I never particularly liked the man but I wonder what history will say about him in the long run if Iraq ends up another completely failed state like Afghanistan. |
You've got it backwards. Saddam engineered this slavery and madness. Before Saddam, Iraq was on its way to reform and prosperity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| The more I learn about Iraq, the more I understand why it took a brute like Saddam to run it. I never particularly liked the man but I wonder what history will say about him in the long run if Iraq ends up another completely failed state like Afghanistan. |
You've got it backwards. Saddam engineered this slavery and madness. Before Saddam, Iraq was on its way to reform and prosperity. |
Are you sure about that. Pre-Saddam-
| Quote: |
Republic of Iraq
The reinstated Hashemite monarchy lasted until 1958, when it was overthrown by a coup d'etat of the Iraqi Army, known as the 14 July Revolution. The coup brought Brigadier General Abdul Karim Qassim to power. He withdrew from the Baghdad Pact and established friendly relations with the Soviet Union,
but his government lasted only until 1963, when it was overthrown by Colonel Abdul Salam Arif. Salam Arif died in 1966 and his brother, Abdul Rahman Arif, assumed the presidency. In 1968, Rahman Arif was overthrown by the Arab Socialist Baath Party. This movement gradually came under the control of Saddam Hussein 'Abd al-Majid al Tikriti, who acceded to the presidency and control of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC), then Iraq's supreme executive body, in July 1979, while killing many of his opponents |
If you are referring to the second bolded section, I can hardly see how that was considered to be "on the right path". What happened in those 2 years between 66 and 68 that you consider to be evidence of being on the right path? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| The more I learn about Iraq, the more I understand why it took a brute like Saddam to run it. I never particularly liked the man but I wonder what history will say about him in the long run if Iraq ends up another completely failed state like Afghanistan. |
You've got it backwards. Saddam engineered this slavery and madness. Before Saddam, Iraq was on its way to reform and prosperity. |
Are you sure about that. Pre-Saddam-
| Quote: |
Republic of Iraq
The reinstated Hashemite monarchy lasted until 1958, when it was overthrown by a coup d'etat of the Iraqi Army, known as the 14 July Revolution. The coup brought Brigadier General Abdul Karim Qassim to power. He withdrew from the Baghdad Pact and established friendly relations with the Soviet Union,
but his government lasted only until 1963, when it was overthrown by Colonel Abdul Salam Arif. Salam Arif died in 1966 and his brother, Abdul Rahman Arif, assumed the presidency. In 1968, Rahman Arif was overthrown by the Arab Socialist Baath Party. This movement gradually came under the control of Saddam Hussein 'Abd al-Majid al Tikriti, who acceded to the presidency and control of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC), then Iraq's supreme executive body, in July 1979, while killing many of his opponents |
If you are referring to the second bolded section, I can hardly see how that was considered to be "on the right path". What happened in those 2 years between 66 and 68 that you consider to be evidence of being on the right path? |
The salient part of Iraq's past was its co-operation between Shia and Sunni and even Kurds. It was Saddam's repression of the Shia and Kurds that have engendered the hatred which continues to embroil in Iraq.
Note also, that Iraq's economy was not dominated by oil before Saddam's ascension. There was a basis of light industry and manufacturing that became stifled by socialist statism.
The seeds of Iraq's economic immaturity and sectarian strife were exacerbated by Saddam. You're right, Saddam was not the beginning of the meltdown, but your first statement is inaccurate. Contrary to Iraq needing a Saddam, Iraq has become accustomed to a Saddam and cannot get past him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with everything you said. I didn't however state that Iraq needed a Saddam Hussein. I was just wondering about how history will view him IF Iraq goes down the road of Afghanistan or other completely failed states.
You state Saddam's treatment of the sunnis/kurds as a major instigator of the destabalization Iraq is undergoing now. While I don't dispute this, I imagine some could argue that Saddam knew what these factions would unleash if they hadn't been repressed.
Like him or not, you would have to agree Saddam kept Iraq from merely becoming a vassal or even territory of Iran. And in today's arab world, he must also be given miniscule credit for keeping Iraq a secular state.
I find it utterly ironic that our number one enemy in this "war against Islamic fundamentalism" was, pretty much, the most secular regime in the middle east. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
