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| Do you serve Mighty Lucifer? |
| Hell yes! |
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| Hell no! |
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| Total Votes : 47 |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| You will agree, no, that humans have a very very long history of ascribing first to the direct hand of god that which is later discovered to be governed by natural law? |
Yes , but even though this has been a pattern until this point , there is no reason to believe that it will continue to be the case . We've reached a point where the more we learn about the world the more complicated it becomes ... perhaps at some point we might realise that we're invested too much in reductionism and are moving away from the truth. Certainly won't be the first time in the history of man we've put all our eggs in one basket to find out we're on the wrong track. Perhaps trying to simplify that which is clearly complex and profound does not enhance the truth of the universe , but rather steals from it .It can be argued that at some stage we held some ancient primeval understanding of the universe and since have lost it through thousands of years of alienation from our natural state.
We might understand better how things work , but we certainly are no closer to understanding the relevance or context of it all . It's all the illusion of progress which we've become fixated on. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Waiting for better science are we?
Often a junk explanation is better than no explanation. Science doesn't shrug its shoulders and ask a priest what to do. Science looks at the observable, if there is a god out there controlling natural laws then It is having an effect upon this universe. Effects are observable, no such effects of god have been observed. The more we look at the universe the further we move from a god. Will we one day find god hiding in a black hole? Maybe, though probably not.
Philip Pulman puts it quite well for anyone needing to understand a commonly held atheist position.
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I know full well that the total amount of the things I know is a tiny little pinprick of light compared with the vast unlimited darkness that surrounds it � which is all the things I don't know. I don't know more than a tiny fragment of what it's possible to know about this world.
As for what goes on outside it in the rest of the universe, it's a vast darkness full of things that I don't know. Now, somewhere in the things that I don't know, there may be a God.
But if we come down � like coming close up with a camera � getting closer and closer to this little pinprick of light, so that it begins to expand and gets bigger and bigger until we find ourselves inside it... I can see no evidence in that circle of things I do know, in history, or in science or anywhere else, no evidence of the existence of God. |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Often a junk explanation is better than no explanation. Science doesn't shrug its shoulders and ask a priest what to do. Science looks at the observable, if there is a god out there controlling natural laws then It is having an effect upon this universe. Effects are observable, no such effects of god have been observed. The more we look at the universe the further we move from a god. Will we one day find god hiding in a black hole? Maybe, though probably not.
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That's far too simplistic . Our perceptions of the universe and what we can observe are highly distorted . We load a lot of baggage onto the universe , like the perception of time and space . The problem is that the very way be observe the universe actually tells us nothing about it and how it works other than that at the lumpy lower dimensions observable matter follows the 4 forces in a pedictable manner . Beyond that on the quantum level and beyond we can not observe or make predictions about anything other than what passes through into our lumpy dimensions is pre determined and beyond our control . If you can hold that in your mind for one second you'd not be so quick to write off the idea of god . |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| But if we come down � like coming close up with a camera � getting closer and closer to this little pinprick of light, so that it begins to expand and gets bigger and bigger until we find ourselves inside it... I can see no evidence in that circle of things I do know, in history, or in science or anywhere else, no evidence of the existence of God. |
19th century reductionism is a dogma of it's own . The false assumptions are that we can observe and test everything that exists in the universe , and that doing so eventually we will arrive at some tiny predictable entity that we can understand and predict. To invest in this idea entirely makes you as reliant on faith as any christian . Faith that you are capable of knowing anything about the universe which very existance is nothing more than your conscious experience of it . Faith that what you see exists in a real sense ...when in fact what you experience, in the most real sense , as your world is nothing but a symphony of energy vibrations you dreamed into being . |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| If you can hold that in your mind for one second you'd not be so quick to write off the idea of god . |
I didn't write off any god. Certainty is not something we can really have about the universe. And yes our view of the universe is distorted that's why we have maths to help get around the problems of such quandaries as quantum physics. I really can't see a correlation between god's existence and quantum physics. So is there a god hiding in the quark? unlikely, and what a strange place to dictate morality from. The universe may be unpredictable but it still follows mathematical rules. If I believe there is no god to be found in the universe is this really faith or a lack of faith based on natural explanations being the cornerstone of science?
Now, why would a being so concerned with our morality want to hide? |
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ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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bovine rebel: "The false assumptions are that we can observe and test everything that exists in the universe , and that doing so eventually we will arrive at some tiny predictable entity that we can understand and predict. To invest in this idea entirely makes you as reliant on faith as any christian."
you don't really understand what science is... the goal of science is not to explain everything (godel's incompleteness theorem shows that this is impossible)... instead, the goal of science is to make assertions that can be tested and verified, i.e. the EXACT OPPOSITE of faith! science is a method built upon skepticism, religions are based upon dogma... |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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The universe may be unpredictable but it still follows mathematical rules. If I believe there is no god to be found in the universe is this really faith or a lack of faith based on natural explanations being the cornerstone of science?
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You don't think something intrinsicaly true and profound is not lost when we reduce the universe to nothing more than pattern recognition ? (Maths is nothing more than a predictive medium for patterns). You don't think there is anything in the vast realms of the rich experience that is life that can't transcend the laws of phsyics ?
Certainly our consciousness can transcend the laws of physics . When I feel empathy for another being it is not the result of wave particles hitting my photo receptors and stimulating dopamine , or it would be enitirely random ...it's happening on another level beyong the simple process of cause and effect . And it's this level of existance that physics fails to deal with . Imagination , empathy , the experience of love/fear , dreams , the ability for our minds to transcen what our bodies are capable of puts our minds in a higher dimensional space.....the collective psyche of humanity .....if god exists this is surely its domain , where things are possible beyond what the body is capable of unlike in the lumpy physical world . |
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bovinerebel
Joined: 27 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| you don't really understand what science is... the goal of science is not to explain everything (godel's incompleteness theorem shows that this is impossible)... instead, the goal of science is to make assertions that can be tested and verified, i.e. the EXACT OPPOSITE of faith! science is a method built upon skepticism, religions are based upon dogma... |
Total bull. That's the goal of science but the flaw is that mankind has made the assumption that all things that exist (or are in any way significant to the universe or worth knowing about) can be tested and verfied . They are taking the premise of science and projecting it to hold true onto the whole universe, including the subjective experiences of humanity . That part is FAITH. Science itself has failed it's own rules...its validity (and contextual importance) can't be tested or verified unless one can step out of the realm within which it operates (3/4 dimensional space/time). As we clearly can't , I Know what science is and I know what it posing to be ... if you can't grasp this then it's you who needs to do a little more thinking about the context in which science operates and the nature of faith . |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Justin Hale has my vote for most stupid! I really hope this is a total send-up, in which case, it really is quite funny as is your logic.
You rail against theism but you want to worship Lucifer and yourself. Contradiction?
You see far too much wisdom in a pack of Hyenas if you ask me. You might learn other things like humanity if you studied other things as well.
You seem to think that humans are incapable of understanding things that are not instinctual; that humans have no power of intellect to understand things around them.
Here's a quote for you: If there was no such thing as God, man would have to make one up.
In other words, in the absence of theism, man could still understand something is wrong through deduction and induction; we would not have to be instinctual.
Also, you also insult hyenas to say that they do that purely instinctually and that they cannot learn from other hyenas. Do hyenas who are raised in zoos or in some other isolation, behave similarly.
Lastlly, what if someone decided to act upon thier lust and smite you? It does not make for a very good religion; this pure selfishness and lust for power because like those hyenas humans are able to understand where such behavior leads...
Good luck!
Justin Hale says God is dead.
Justin Hale is dead - God. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Unposter wrote: |
| Justin Hale has my vote for most stupid! |
Name-calling, eh? What a scholar! 
| Unposter wrote: |
I really hope this is a total send-up, in which case, it really is quite funny as is your logic.
You rail against theism but you want to worship Lucifer and yourself. Contradiction? |
No, that is not even vaguely contradictory. Instead of rambling on and boring me to death like you usually do, supply a quote from me and refute it, because the above is just irrelvant. Theists:
1. posit X exists and is responsible for the creation of the cosmos
2. worship X
I've:
1. Said I believe the Devil doesn't exist
2. Said I serve a conception of His life-affirming ideology if we pretend He exists
No contradiction. Altruist moralities hold that morality is painful and difficult and involves self-denial and self-sacrifice. An egoist morality says morality should be natural, attractive, rewarding, and enjoyable. The purpose of morality is to enjoy life, flourish, and be happy
| Unposter wrote: |
| You see far too much wisdom in a pack of Hyenas if you ask me. |
Yeah, evolution. Comparisons to other species are useful and interesting and of aesthetical excellence. I used hyenas as an analogy for creatures that work better as a team. Lions and sharks can blow away almost anything alone. Hyenas can't. We can't. We flourish by solidarity.
| Unposter wrote: |
| We can't. You might learn other things like humanity if you studied other things as well. |
Such as?
| Unposter wrote: |
| You seem to think that humans are incapable of understanding things that are not instinctual; that humans have no power of intellect to understand things around them. |
Where the hell have I claimed this? WTF are you even talking about?
| Unposter wrote: |
Here's a quote for you: If there was no such thing as God, man would have to make one up.
In other words, in the absence of theism, man could still understand something is wrong through deduction and induction; we would not have to be instinctual. |
That's the only defensible point you've made, but it involves my debate within a debate with Flakfizer about where morality comes from (and instincts are central). Induction/deduction are abstract and likely different genes in our evolutionary past to moral instincts.
| Unposter wrote: |
| Also, you also insult hyenas to say that they do that purely instinctually and that they cannot learn from other hyenas. Do hyenas who are raised in zoos or in some other isolation, behave similarly. |
Discussion on hyenas is only an analogy. Hyenas' behavior is largely inherited via naturally selected genes. So is ours. We are moral creatures because we inherited naturally selected genes millenia old.
| Unposter wrote: |
Lastlly, what if someone decided to act upon thier lust and smite you? It does not make for a very good religion; this pure selfishness and lust for power because like those hyenas humans are able to understand where such behavior leads...
Good luck!
Justin Hale says God is dead.
Justin Hale is dead - God. |
Good Lord, what a load of sad and pitable waffle. Where have I advocated any of that?
| bovinerebel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| To those theists, I would ask simply "let's pretend for a moment that God died. Immediately upon hearing the bad news, would you go out and kill and steel and rape? If yes, your position is consistent but immoral. If no, why not?" |
The irony is that it's often lofty ideals such as "devotion" and "truth" that motivates one to search out "God". Every atheist is someone that started out trying to find God and realized he was either Awol or asleep on the job . It's also often disgust at the deeds done in the name of religion . or of state of the world and the implications for what kind of being "God" must be if he exists that drives many atheists from Religion .I think you could argue that Atheism is the ultimate humanistic position. A statement of transcendence and morality.
"Hard atheism" itself however is a rather emotive position for anyone to take . Somewhere it seems in rejecting the traditional notions of "God" that people tend to alienate themselves from the viable alternative theistic ways of understanding the universe .Sad .
Anyone who knows about �Heinz dilemma� and the flaws most people present through answering it , knows that most human beings have very low levels of ethical reasoning. Most people's Cartesian dualistic view of the world is entirely socialized into the independently without any introspection, questioning or testing of validity. If they weren�t so stupid religious people would be able to understand how their position is less ethically sound in the universal existential sense . |
That was a superb post. What followed in subsequent posts I have little interest in discussing, but my view here is that scientific discourse often requires of the observer to have faith, since it posits an axiom which is rather controversial. However, those are the rules of the discourse. In epistemology and metaphysics, the rules are to question that axiom, not to posit it. For a scientist to wanna discuss that, he'd have to take off his science glasses and put on philosophy glasses and get a totally different picture. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
I summarized Hitchens above. That was my review which I wrote myself after reading the book, but there are many direct quotes too.
| Flakfizer wrote: |
| The ants you speak of, did they "learn" to be "altruistic" or is "altruism" programmed into their DNA? Are humans hard-wired to do good, or have we decided that doing good is beneficial? |
Both. Hyenas who venture out alone stand no chance against the lions and don't pass on their genes. Hyenas who stick to mobs of 30 do all manner of ass whupping and subsequent generations inherit accordingly. Ants demonstrate total self-sacrifice (their own lives for the mutual benefit of the whole family).
| Flakfizer wrote: |
| I am sure the Israelites had some pretty good ideas about right and wrong before Sinai. Then again, they were theists long before Sinai too, so I'm not sure where you are going with that. |
To those theists, I would ask simply "let's pretend for a moment that God died. Immediately upon hearing the bad news, would you go out and kill and steel and rape? If yes, your position is consistent but immoral. If no, why not?" |
Yes and no. If I knew there were no God, my morality would certainly change. I wouldn't do some of the things you mentioned simply because I don't see how they would benefit me. Some things (stealing) I would do if I thought I wouldn't be caught. A big reason not to do the things you listed is because of fear of being caught by the police. Your list of misdeed is a list of illegalities, not merely moral issues. If people were naturally moral, we would have no need for laws and punishments any more than we have need of God. How about I put this parallel question to you: Do you think all those misdeeds you mentioned would increase if there were no police, laws, punitive measures? If we don't need God to be moral, why do we need police, courts, and jails? Or is it your stance that we don't need those things either?
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Religion attacks our innate morality. When I debate theists, they always ask �where would your morals come from if there was no God? If God is dead, isn�t everything permitted?� This a profound insult to us in our very nature and character. It is not the case that we do not set about butchering, raping and thieving from each other right now only because we�re afraid of a divine punishment or because we�re looking for a divine reward. It�s an extraordinarily base and insulting thing to say to people. Human solidarity demands that we forbid activities such as rape, theft and murder. This is innate to us.
Name me an ethical statement that was made, or moral action performed, by a religious person in the name of faith that couldn�t have been done by an atheist. |
I don't see what others see in this guy. What's his point? He says morality is innate. Then he says human solidarity demands that we forbid rape, theft etc. If the morality were innate, forbidding immorality would be unnecessary. Then he states that it is the forbidding that is innate. So, which is it? I like that he doesn't say, "Human solidarity demands that we not engage in activities such as rape, theft and murder (because people do engage in these all the time)," but rather that we forbid them.
And his last bit about naming an action that couldn't have been done by an atheist is pointless. What does it prove? It doesn't prove that morality is innate or in our nature. It's not about what people could do, it's about what they do by nature. Seals can bounce balls on their noses and put them through basketball hoops. Doesn't mean that behaviour is in their nature. People could be perfectly well-behaved even if there were no police or punishments, but is that what you would expect of them? Heck, even with police and punishments, most folks lock their doors at night. I know I do. |
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mikeyboy122
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Location: namyang
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| nah.my talents and skills come from the one "upstairs", |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Do you serve Mighty Lucifer? |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
All these theists making sacrifices in the here and now for the sake of the afterlife are out of their minds. It doesn't matter in any case, since if all that rot is true, I can repent and Jesus will save my soul!  |
guess you agree with HITLER huh  ... |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| EDIT: I just read MM2's post and it seems he also is arguing that human morals are instinctual and we later tried to explain these morals with the supernatural. Not sure why we would do that, though. |
Not all morals, but the core values. Why? I just explained. Humans have a way of attributing to god that which they couldn't explain. Where does the sun go every night? A sun god pulls it down from the sky. Where do our morals come from? Must come from god.
You will agree, no, that humans have a very very long history of ascribing first to the direct hand of god that which is later discovered to be governed by natural law? |
Your argument leaves you short! You are saying early humans didn�t know the facts so they made them up with the idea of , god did it.
Same as a child who doesn�t know where the food comes from in the fridge
He cries, mummy walks to the fridge and out comes an APPLE! Has no idea where it comes from guess he assumes its made in the fridge!
So atheists say THERE IS NO GOD!! Because I can�t see it... or understand how it can be so..
Isn�t it possible that god is here but humans are still very early on the evolution time line to understand how he is here...?
sounds very premature and arrogant to rule him out when it�s clear that it�s very possible he might be here... theist feel the presence atheists don�t
That could be some kind of intuition!
You sense danger right? You just know something is going to happen...
Same thing isn�t it... other people are clueless and walk right into it...
And I�m not talking about common sense... I mean the feeling... or maybe you guys dont have that either.
Just because you cant understand it, doesn�t mean its not possible!
and before you talk of flying teapots and pink elephants!
just think what I am saying for a second! 100.000 years ago man didnt know what fire was! now we have a name for it and can make it in a BIC lighter! just becuase we dont know what god is now, doesnt mean we wont know 100.000 years from now... |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| bovinerebel wrote: |
| (Maths is nothing more than a predictive medium for patterns). |
Are you so sure about that? It may be that the universe is only an expression of the underlaying math....
h |
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