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CaptPorridge
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
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 Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Well, dying prematurely pretty much backs up my point that JWs aren't in it for the prosperity, now doesn't it?
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Actually i don't know much about thw JW,just that blood transfusion rule and I've read that there have been loads of child abuse cases brought against some members --- I did meet some when I first arrived in Korea and they had some pretty bizzare views on what life on earth will be like soon......lions living peacefully amongst children cause the lions will become herbivors and everyone will be safe and happy.
What I've gathered from other groups, is that its the leaders of the these cultic groups that are in in for the money, at the expence of the average member.
With teenagers dying, they're making a decsion based on being almost brainwashed their entire lives to believe blood transfusions are sinful.
I feel they aren't able to make a fullly informed decision, add to that the psychological preasure from Church members and possibly parents...
Adults yeah, has the right to decide...but what if that person has been brainwashed? And what of the family that person leaves behind, the children, spouse, parents???
Last edited by CaptPorridge on Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:31 am Post subject: |
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An adult yeah, has the right to decide...but what if that person has been brainwashed?
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As far as I'm concerned, "brainwashed" is just a label that people use when someone else adopts beliefs and practices that the person doing the labelling finds strange. Sure, there is pressure from other church members to adopt these beliefs and practices, but you could say that about ANY religion. |
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CaptPorridge
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi On The Other Hand,
I'd love hear your thoughts on this article, which draws parallels between one of the most destructive cult leaders of recent history and the ideas expressed in George Orwell's 1984:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/jonestown.html
Maybe brainwashing isn't the best word to use, coersive persuasion is a word I prefer. If 1000 smiling people say the same smiling lie, who could blame someone for believing them?
Through 25 years of research and interviews with Jonestown survivors, Zimbardo has found parallels between the mind control techniques used by Jones at Jonestown--namely sophisticated types of compliance, conformity and obedience training--and those described in Orwell's fictional book "1984." In the book, Orwell provides a model for resistance as his main character, Winston Smith, stands up against an omnipotent party system. |
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busan_boy2000
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| No - Kilgore Trout is the Kurt Vonnegut character that appears - or is referenced - in almost everybook. He reminds me of L. Ron Hubbard in the sense that each is a failed science fiction writer that have been known to occassionaly go nuts. You guys know what I mean by "failed" concerning Hubbard......except one is real. Truth is stranger...... |
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busan_boy2000
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Sorry about the double here...but I want to weigh in on the brainwashing thing. It may not be the best word to describe it - espcially in children - coersive persuasion makes more sense - I would suggest cognitive construction myself.
But remember that you can not actually claim this about all religions. The thing is that a child raised in a cult or any environment for that matter that only presents one side of the story, regardless of what that story is - crosses the line. I guess what I want to get at is that children raised as JW or Scientologists or whatever is that the leaders/members (maliciously intended or not) can mold these children intot their own image. That is why they have thier own schools, they only interact with people of thier own kind ect. They are kept ignorant of the world and once this behavior is taught to a fresh mind it is next to immposible to undue. This is a simplified point I realize - we have to consider free will, inner capacity /natural drive towards reason and critical thought ect.
This is also I guess why I find scientolgy and JW so infuriating. I guess as someone who raised in an anglican/episcopalian household, concerning the any religion point, is that I was never denied access to knowledge or forced into the belief system - I could go pick up anybook I wanted ect. and critical thinking was celebrated. (we got to study Nietzsche and Kant at sunday school - but from what I hear this is not exactly the norm concerning religious teaching for most).
The scary thing is with say a child attending a scientology school is that yeah, they take classes, get homework and go to the library. Except the problem is everybook in thier library is a scientology publication or written by L Ron Hubbard. Its like that simpsons episode with the cult - Bart starts doing really well in school and lisa starts failing - as the answer to every question is "the leader". |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Busanboy wrote:
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| This is also I guess why I find scientolgy and JW so infuriating. I guess as someone who raised in an anglican/episcopalian household, concerning the any religion point, is that I was never denied access to knowledge or forced into the belief system - I could go pick up anybook I wanted ect. and critical thinking was celebrated. (we got to study Nietzsche and Kant at sunday school - but from what I hear this is not exactly the norm concerning religious teaching for most). |
Interesting biographical sketch, but I don't think its all that representative of religious upbringings. I was raised in a Catholic household, and though my father was protestant, my mother took responsibility for our religious training, and certainly did not encourage us to think critically about the church and its teachings. She would've been quite happy to have us go through life giving unquestioning loyalty to Rome.
At Catholic school, the religious instruction was fairly progressive, in the sense of emphasizing the post-Vatican II commitment to social justice and ecumenical tolerance, but being "progressive" is not the same thing as being a critical thinker. For example, we were taught fairly left-wing type stuff about the inequities of unfettered capitalism, but kids who wanted to argue a more right-wing position pretty much got the cold shoulder. And, to get top grades on the exam, we had to regurgitate the church's teachings on whatever subject was under discussion.
The Alberta Catholic school system is run by the government. I'm sure things are even more rigid at privately funded Catholic schools. And yet, one rarely hears the Catholic church referred to as a "cult".
Capt Porridge: Thanks for the article. I'll respond tomorrow. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:24 am Post subject: |
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And yet, one rarely hears the Catholic church referred to as a "cult".
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Cult is reserved for organisations considered unacceptable to mainstream thought, though I'm sure all religious private schools have elements in common with cults. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
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And yet, one rarely hears the Catholic church referred to as a "cult".
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Cult is reserved for organisations considered unacceptable to mainstream thought, though I'm sure all religious private schools have elements in common with cults. |
Interesting points being made here. One further one i often consider is the very word CULT-ure. Clearly culture is but a myriad ( i.e. sprawling nexus / leviathan ) of cults. Some ( as stated above ) are simply more "correct" & accepted as "normal" than others. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I think the Hari Krishnas are employing cult tactics, likewise the North Korean government, and many other groups that are not readily identified as cults.
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Of course, the NK government is actually a lot worse than most groups identified as cults, as it forces people to live there and absorb the propaganda at gunpoint. In the vast majority of cases, no one is physically forced to join or remain in a cult.
Interestingly, one group people who DO use physical coercion are the so-called deprogrammers, who like to portray themselves as having quasi-law enforcement status. There was a case a few years back where some deprogrammers abducted a kid from his mother, on the grounds that the woman was a cult member. Thing is, the kid said he was quite happy with his mother and her religion, and had the deprogrammer charged with kidnapping. Not sure how it all turned out.
Porridge: Got bogged down on the drug thread tonight. Haven't had the chance to re-read the article. I'll try soon. |
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wormholes101
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Cult indoctrination falls within the field of psychology. Most pyschologist agree on a broad definition of a cult. A cult usually possesses three main characteristics. They are:
1) A charasmatic leader
2) A belief in an oppressive "outside world".
3) A unique set of beliefs and rituals.
Last edited by wormholes101 on Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Capt Porridge:
The article you posted deals mostly with the concern of some psychologists that cult leaders are abusing psychological techniques, but provides little information on what those techniques actually entail. The techniques that it DOES describe seem to me applicable only to Jonestown and similar situations invoving a high degree of social and geographical isolation.
| Quote: |
"Big brother is watching you." Jones used this idea to gain the loyalty of his followers. He required followers to spy on one another and blasted messages from loudspeakers so that his voice was always present while they worked, slept and ate, Zimbardo says.
* Self-incrimination. Jones instructed followers to give him written statements about their fears and mistakes and then, if they disobeyed him, he used that information to humiliate them or subject them to their worst fears during public meetings. In "1984," the main character's resistance is broken when he is subjected to his worst fear of being covered in rats.
* Suicide drills. Orwell's main character said that "the proper thing was to kill yourself before they get you" in a threat of war. Jones had his followers do practice suicide drills right up to the actual mass suicide event.
* Distorting people's perceptions. Jones blurred the relationship between words and reality, for example, by requiring his followers to give him daily thanks for good food and work--yet the people were starving and working six and a half days a week, Zimbardo says. Similarly, Orwell described such a technique, which he called "newspeak."
By mastering such mind control techniques, Jones was able to gain followers' obedience and loyalty, Zimbardo says. "Jim Jones is probably the most charismatic cult leader in modern times in terms of his personal appeal, oratory, his sexual appeal, his just sheer dynamism and his total participation in the control of every member of his group," he explains.
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One by one.
Big Brother. People were required to spy on one another and messages were blared from loud speakers. The mere act of spying does not seem to me likely to produce "brainwashed" automatons, as you seem to imagine people who refuse blood transfusions are. As for the loud spreakers, those might have a pretty intense psychological effect if blared throughout an enclosed area 24-7, but most followers of so-called cults live in the secular community, and are not exposed to such round-the-clock propagandizing. I don't think JWs turn down blood transfusions because a loudspeaker is constantly telling them to do so.
Self-incrimination. Public humiliation is fortunately not a feature of most mainstream religions, so groups that do practice it can be fairly labelled as off-the-beaten-path. But, still, how effective would this be as a "brainwashing" tool in the absence of an enforced geographical isolation? I'm sure some groups do try to cut their members up in public, but I'll also bet you that alot of newbies, once they see this happen, just get up and leave the church, never to return.
Suicide drills. Again, this seems specific to Jonestown-like scenarios. While many "cults" preach an apocalyptic worldview, teaching their followers to expect the imminent destruction of the world, I don't think most of them have daily suicide drills. Again, most of their members are living in secular communities, holding down jobs or attending school, thus rendering such mass mobilization highly unfeasible. Apart from Jonestown in 1978, I can think of only two groups, the Solar Temple and the Hale-Bopp comet cult, who staged mass suicides(The Branch Davidians, I believe, were murdered by their leaders). Anyway, doesn't the idea of suicide drills kind of contradict the popular notion that cult leaders are in it for the money?
Distorting people's perceptions. All religions do this to some degree. Do you think Christians in the Third World don't give thanks for the meagre portions they recieve? Okay, maybe Jones took it to a ridiculous degree, but once again I don't see this as being an effective tool for "brainwashing" WITHOUT the loudspeakers, slave labour, barbed wire and armed guards that made Jonestown such a memorable place. And that bit about the wire and the guards brings me to my next point:
JONESTOWN WAS A PARAMILITARY OPERATION. I think this really needs to be stressed. Shortly before the suicides, an American congressman(Leo Ryan) went down to Guyana to check out rumours that Jones was holding people against their will. While attempting to board a plane home, Ryan and Company were gunned down by some of Jones' followers, who had tailed him to the airport.
I don't know how many people at Jonestown drank the punch because they were convinced it was the right thing to do, and how many of them just thought to themselves "hmm, Jones just had an American congressman gunned down for asking questions. I really don't wanna swallow this kool-aid, but they'll probably put a bullet in me if I don't. Well, bottoms up". I DO know that some people had enough of their wits about them to try to flee, AND that some dissenters and escapees were gunned down by Jones' henchman. Without having all the details, I will say that I think physical coercion played a greater role in the tragedy than the "anti-brainwashing" lobby would have us believe.
One final point: prior to the exile in Guyana, the People's Temple was a respected community church in San Francisco, especially noted for administering social services to poor people. Jones himself was even appointed to a political position by Mayor Moscone. My point here is that his followers probably had more rational reasons for admiring him than just the fact that they were all "brainwashed". |
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CaptPorridge
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Capt Porridge:
The article you posted deals mostly with the concern of some psychologists that cult leaders are abusing psychological techniques, but provides little information on what those techniques actually entail. The techniques that it DOES describe seem to me applicable only to Jonestown and similar situations invoving a high degree of social and geographical isolation.
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You've just made me realize what a silly name "Capt Porridge" is..
Well you wrote so much and I'm eternally grateful to you for providing me with that Canadian dudes contact details, so I'll try and address your responce, but not now....I'm off to Daejon to buy chocolate.
Also abit out of my league here, I haven't studied pyschology...my cult experiences has all revolved around helping my flatmate recover and understand her experience, perhaps those here that have counselled ex-cult members would like to chip in and respond to your comments,
The geographic isolation bit, its quite common for groups like this to have a secluded compound - not all cults have them, but they are great for disorientating new recruits. The group I came in contact with has such a place and apart from the suicide drills, everything else described in the article happens at that place, thats why I'm so concerned about this group.
I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if there are murders or an "induced" suicide.
..and if it happens my ex-students could be the victims, all nice people, all very brainwashed.
The group based near my town is really a criminal organisation, ...its just using religion to gain control over the lives and money of its victims...and we are talking BIG money here.
Drug Cartel money |
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VincentVulgati
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| wormholes101 wrote: |
1) A charasmatic leader
2) A belief in an oppressive "outside world".
3) A unique set of beliefs and rituals. |
Christianity does seem to fit this mold -- if you consider the pope charismatic, that is. Judging from the crowds he draws . . .
In fact, i guess it can be argued that all of the major relions fit the above definition. |
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busan_boy2000
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:25 am Post subject: |
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When is the last time one saw a Scientology soup kitchen. I think in some ways we are beating a dead horse with the whole mainstream/cult thing (I mean the big three from the holy land and the main eastern ones I guess).
A few things on the soup kitchen thing though. Philanthropic/charitable/egalitarian community organizations/involment concerns are, in my humble opinion, is the greatest benefit that organized religions provide. They don't 'require' you to give money - you usually don't have to contribute a dime if you choose not to. Cults are different and really provide no benefit to society as a whole. Although religion and spirtiuality is not my thing (my loss maybe) I feel gratefull, and am thankful that I was able to experience that community aspect they do/did provide for me in my youth - community, giving/sharing, charity, all that stuff - the important things in life. I am not saying that you cannot learn these things without organized religion - do not get me wrong, or flame me for that. A bit of a rant again.
But this idea of the community came up a lot in philosophy classes or at the bar after class. Modern and post-modern texts (and life) invariably lead to the what is good about society (institutions/morality - removal/alienation), what should we preserve, ect.
Anyway, I did a quick search to see if Scientolgy had a charity spin of (to back my soup kitchen comment) and all I could find was the HELP wing of Scientology. I found some articles about Michael Jackson and this group, nothing worth linking, But it sounds like it is merely a recruiting tool to spread Hubbards writing.
So does anyone know of a cult(s) that does charity work? I guess it is unprofitable - as cults are about coin. Could this be another criteria for identifying a cult? Of questionable social benefit. |
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CaptPorridge
Joined: 17 Oct 2003
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Having a charismatic leader in itself has nothing to do with whether a group behaves cultic. Yes cult leaders are charasmatic, but its how they use their charisma.
(these days John Paul 2 is about as charasmatic as a dead fish, no offence John!)
Cults use deception and lies to recruit new members, no one joins a cult knowing what it is they are getting into.
I can walk into any Catholic Church, Jewish Synagogue or Islamic Temple and ask what it is you believe and what is expected of me when should I your religion. -- I will get honest answers.
A cult will never tell the truth. If the group based near me had been honest with my flatmate here's what they would have said:
We believe a wanted rapist is the Messiah.
We believe that Hitler was doing God's work.
As a Church member you will not be allowed to have a boyfriend / girlfriend. If you study our "bible" course and recruit 3 new members we will allow you to marry a chuch member of our choosing.
We will encourage you drop non-church friends and you shouldn't visit your dying mother...god brought you her to find Son Seng Nim..how dare you go against God's will and return home - God will punish your family should you go against him
No sane person would ever join such a group. The fact that they have over 50,000 members in korea and are growing inetrnationally is testement to the fact that mind control works.
Scientology and soup kitchens? cults only aims are to gain new members and earn money. They may make other claims, (usually just a lot of talk) but essentially anything these groups do is directly related to growing. |
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