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Obama: PA voters cling to guns, anti-immigration, religion
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Milwaukiedave wrote:

Second, the charge of elitism coming from someone who supports a candidate that made $109 million dollars over the last seven years is laughable. Speaking of laughing, maybe you should also consider Hillary Clinton laughed off a question about money her husband was paid to give about free trade. In fact it appears many of the people involved in the Clinton campaign have their hand in the cookie jar:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9433.html


That's right, $109 million, over $10 million of which went directly to charities. 80% of Bill Clinton's speeches he gave for charitable causes. So multiply all the money he's earned from speeches times 4, and that's about what he's given to charity.

Its more than you will ever contribute to society, and something Obama can aspire to.

What's more, it doesn't matter how much one makes, but:

1) how one makes it
2) what one does with it

I understand this is a tough truth for you class warriors out there, but being wealthy does not mean you are evil. No, in fact, envying great wealth is not merely a sin, it also demonstrates hypocrisy.

M-Dave wrote:
Third, the controversy over the Obama's remarks were started by a Clinton blogger who has been stalking him. I can't wait to hear you defend that RW tactic.


If by stalking you mean reporting, and if by RW tactic you mean reporting on stupid things people say, I see nothing wrong with it. Again, your partisan tunnel-vision is showing, M-Dave. If you think Clinton = GOP, you must not understand politics.

--------------------

Bringing this back to silly things Obama says. He has indeed given a response to his own slip-up. Although his point about Hillary's hypocrisy is really quite stupid.

Hillary actually voted for limits on credit card caps. This is what Barack is trying to characterize as pandering to credit card companies? SHE VOTED TO LIMIT THE CAP TO 30%.

You heard it here first: Barack tries to deflect his very real condescension with a distortion. And how did Obama vote to limit credit card interest rates?

Quote:
Obama (D-IL), Nay


Thanks for bringing this to our attention, M-Dave.
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stillnotking



Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a very bad remark, and the argument over whether it's true or not is irrelevant. You don't open a dialogue with someone by telling them what's wrong with them. That just provokes defensiveness. Also, it's an inappropriate generalization; people have different reasons for their beliefs, and obviously not every xenophobic reactionary is motivated by bitterness. (What's Rush Limbaugh's excuse?)

The idea that this is going to kill Obama's campaign is just laughable, though. You'll recall that the people now saying that were the same ones saying it about Jeremiah Wright. Obama's going to misstep, misspeak, and screw up. Everyone does that sometimes, and I don't think any of us would come out looking like angels if we had half the nation's reporters and bloggers analyzing our every word and gesture. Americans are smart enough to understand that.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stillnotking wrote:
This was a very bad remark, and the argument over whether it's true or not is irrelevant. You don't open a dialogue with someone by telling them what's wrong with them. That just provokes defensiveness. Also, it's an inappropriate generalization; people have different reasons for their beliefs, and obviously not every xenophobic reactionary is motivated by bitterness. (What's Rush Limbaugh's excuse?)

The idea that this is going to kill Obama's campaign is just laughable, though. You'll recall that the people now saying that were the same ones saying it about Jeremiah Wright. Obama's going to misstep, misspeak, and screw up. Everyone does that sometimes, and I don't think any of us would come out looking like angels if we had half the nation's reporters and bloggers analyzing our every word and gesture. Americans are smart enough to understand that.


I'm pretty much in agreement with you here. Although you have to admit that compared to his current mediocre retort from this gaffe, his Wright response was masterful.

But the Wright scandal was about something Rev. Wright said. This flap is about something that actually came out of Obama's mouth.
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jkelly80



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If McCain can get away with his g**k comment and Hillary with her fabrications on Bosnia, this will prove to be small potatoes.
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
Milwaukiedave wrote:

Second, the charge of elitism coming from someone who supports a candidate that made $109 million dollars over the last seven years is laughable. Speaking of laughing, maybe you should also consider Hillary Clinton laughed off a question about money her husband was paid to give about free trade. In fact it appears many of the people involved in the Clinton campaign have their hand in the cookie jar:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9433.html


That's right, $109 million, over $10 million of which went directly to charities. 80% of Bill Clinton's speeches he gave for charitable causes. So multiply all the money he's earned from speeches times 4, and that's about what he's given to charity.

Its more than you will ever contribute to society, and something Obama can aspire to.

What's more, it doesn't matter how much one makes, but:

1) how one makes it
2) what one does with it

I understand this is a tough truth for you class warriors out there, but being wealthy does not mean you are evil. No, in fact, envying great wealth is not merely a sin, it also demonstrates hypocrisy.


M-Dave wrote:
Third, the controversy over the Obama's remarks were started by a Clinton blogger who has been stalking him. I can't wait to hear you defend that RW tactic.


If by stalking you mean reporting, and if by RW tactic you mean reporting on stupid things people say, I see nothing wrong with it. Again, your partisan tunnel-vision is showing, M-Dave. If you think Clinton = GOP, you must not understand politics.

--------------------

Bringing this back to silly things Obama says. He has indeed given a response to his own slip-up. Although his point about Hillary's hypocrisy is really quite stupid.

Hillary actually voted for limits on credit card caps. This is what Barack is trying to characterize as pandering to credit card companies? SHE VOTED TO LIMIT THE CAP TO 30%.

You heard it here first: Barack tries to deflect his very real condescension with a distortion. And how did Obama vote to limit credit card interest rates?

Quote:
Obama (D-IL), Nay


Thanks for bringing this to our attention, M-Dave.



I'm glad to hear you openly admit you support right wing tactics much like the candidate you support. Clinton is using this as a wedge issue as just as much as a Republican would.

Second, you know very little about me and what I've contributed to society. Comparing me to the Clintons is an insult. They are corporate lackeys (and trust me that's the clean version). To assert that their money is "clean" as you are and that they some how redeem themselves by giving some of it to charity is insane.

I actually grew up in a small town and tend to agree with what he said. Try living in a town that depends on the lumber industry and when those jobs go aware, people have nothing. It's like pulling the carpet from underneath someone. My family personally didn't work in that industry, but I had friends who's parents did. Tell me that's not something to be bitter about if you are one of those people. Yes, he shouldn't have said it that way, but he told the truth. Unlike another candidate I know of.

Third, you seen to like to throw around words like class warrior and elitism. I have nothing against the rich, I simply think they should pay their fair share. What is that? Well I'd be happy to debate that if you'd like separately from this conversation.

Fourth, yes he did vote against that bill, as did almost 3/4 of the US Senate (as you so conveniently failed to mention). Why, because it was a mediocre bill. He has proposed a comprehensive credit card bill of rights. If we are throwing out issues at random, then please tell me why Clinton voted for the bankruptcy bill? Of course that wouldn't affect working people at all would it?

Maybe you should go ahead and vote for McCain since you pretty much already support all the Republican talking points. Talk about partisan.


Last edited by Milwaukiedave on Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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VanIslander



Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Bitter? We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!"

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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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agentX



Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pkang0202 wrote:
Obama is stating the obvious. Small town Americans are always going to be bitter about something.

Thats like saying, "People from New York are rude. They are rude because of the way things are now."

Senator Obama, the master of the obvious.


Those rural Pennsylvanians spoke out today;
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/04/13/foxnews-rural-pennsylvanians-find-little-to-argue-with-barack-obama/
Quote:
FOXNews sent out a producer to get reactions from small town Pennsylvanians on Barack Obama�s comments re: the challenges of reaching out to voters who are �embittered� by the economic situation and distrustful of politicians.

Crooks and Liars has the video.
Reporter: Do you think people here are bitter because of the situation at hand?
Resident (the White guy, the other clip is the Black guy): I know they are...these people who have lost out, lost jobs, they're definitely bitter...he was definitely on-target.

Later in the video, the man says he won't vote for Obama but he thinks he's right about the bitter comment.

CNN's talking heads took Clinton and McCain to task for targeting Obama over this, given how much money both of them make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8dRMofHNs
Quote:
BLITZER: All right, and Hillary Clinton responded to the Obama comments this way; Jeff. Let me play her little sound bite.

HRC: It's being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter. Well, that's not my experience. As I travel around Pennsylvania, I meet people who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are positive, who are rolling up their sleeves. They're working hard every day for a better future for themselves and their children. Pennsylvanians don't need a president who looks down on them.

BLITZER: All right, Jeff. What do you think?

JEFF TOOBIN: I think that is so ridiculous. I mean that is not at all what Barack Obama said. I just think this is an example of how a campaign between the two of them can be purely destructive. And not elevate either candidate. I mean, Hillary Clinton is clearly distorting what Obama said. And by the way, what Obama said is factually accurate. It's been true throughout history that people who have economic problems lash out against various others. I mean, I just think it is an embarrassing for the Clinton campaign to hang on this as if it's some sort of gaffe by Obama.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Muncie, Indiana Saturday morning, Obama was counterpunching, as he should be� explaining and expanding on his remarks:

"The problem is our politics doesn�t let the American people get heard. People know that it�s not easy solving some of these problems but they want to feel like at least someone is fighting for them.

It�s interesting. Lately there has been a little typical sort of political flare up because I said something that everybody knows is true which is that there are a whole bunch of folks in small towns in Pennsylvania, in towns right here in Indiana, in my hometown in Illinois who are bitter.

They are angry.

They feel like they have been left behind. They feel like nobody is paying attention to what they�re going through.

So I said well you know when you�re bitter you turn to what you can count on. So people they vote about guns, or they take comfort from their faith and their family and their community.

And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming over to this country or they get frustrated about how things are changing.

That�s a natural response.

And now I didn�t say it as well as I should have because you know the truth is that these traditions that are passed on from generation to generation those are important. That�s what sustains us

But what is absolutely true is that people don�t feel like they are being listened to. And so they pray and they count on each other and they count on their families. You know this in your own lives. What we need is a government that is actually paying attention. A government that is fighting for working people day in and day out making sure that we are trying to allow them to live out the American dream. And that�s what this campaign is about. "


http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/14/8284/
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At a time when 81% of the country thinks we�re heading in the wrong direction (aren�t these people bitter?)

Milwaukiedave wrote:


Nice bumper sticker. Very Happy Laughing Very Happy
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Milwaukiedave



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RS,

Thanks, I happened to find it at a Kool-aid party I went to while chanting Hillary hating slogans.

*sarcasm*

Actually I found it while reading one of political message forums.
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Milwaukiedave wrote:
RS,

Thanks, I happened to find it at a Kool-aid party I went to while chanting Hillary hating slogans.

*sarcasm*

Actually I found it while reading one of political message forums.


Bitter voters have the numbers to hold sway in this election. Unfortuately, that probably means it's time for the Moron-in-chief to start another war. Hopefully, he'll be restrained though I think a padded cell at the Hague would be the best place for him to be restrained. Very Happy Laughing Very Happy


Last edited by R. S. Refugee on Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ARG polls can be unreliable and another survey, by Temple University in Philadelphia, gave Mrs Clinton a nine-point lead.

.......

Most steelworkers questioned by The Times said that the furore was an irrelevant distraction. Indeed, in a part of Pennsylvania that should favour Mrs Clinton, Mr Obama�s speech was far more warmly received.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3745785.ece
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Pligganease



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jkelly80 wrote:
If McCain can get away with his g**k comment and Hillary with her fabrications on Bosnia, this will prove to be small potatoes.


Not gonna happen since Hillary is running campaign ads slinging Obama's name through the mud. If he wins the nomination, McCain will do the same thing.
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jkelly80



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pligganease wrote:
jkelly80 wrote:
If McCain can get away with his g**k comment and Hillary with her fabrications on Bosnia, this will prove to be small potatoes.


Not gonna happen since Hillary is running campaign ads slinging Obama's name through the mud. If he wins the nomination, McCain will do the same thing.


It would be quite easy to potray McCain as a heroic survivor of a horrible detention, a brave and honorable man who unfortunately has fallen victim to a racist mindset as a result of his ordeal, blah blah blah

It writes itself.
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