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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: "Stop being a crusader" |
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3828082.ece
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British Muslim 'bullied' for converting to Christianity
Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
A British citizen who converted to Christianity from Islam and then complained to police when locals threatened to burn his house down was told by officers to �stop being a crusader�, according to a new report.
Nissar Hussein, 43, from Bradford, West Yorkshire, who was born and raised in Britain, converted from Islam to Christianity with his wife, Qubra, in 1996. The report says that he was subjected to a number of attacks and, after being told that his house would be burnt down if he did not repent and return to Islam, reported the threat to the police. It says he was told that such threats were rarely carried out and the police officer told him to �stop being a crusader and move to another place�. A few days later the unoccupied house next door was set on fire. |
I assume/hope the copper who said that was a Muslim. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| I don't understand how or why, but according to leftard thought, posting this article somehow makes you a filthy racist "islamophobe". |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| I think that word has expired. Like the "religion of peace" nonsense, it is so nakedly meaningless and (to the extent that it has any meaning) false, that we can only assume that it is the hate-filled Imams and their hard hard hard hard left apologists that take it seriously. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| somehow makes you a filthy racist "islamophobe". |
You wouldn't be putting words in other people's mouths would you? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| somehow makes you a filthy racist "islamophobe". |
You wouldn't be putting words in other people's mouths would you? |
Come now, Ya-ta... You know as well as I that it would be only a matter of time before someone else said it... |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: "Stop being a crusader" |
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| A few days later the unoccupied house next door was set on fire. |
Did they find thermite? Please say they found thermite. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermite, Jews and maybe Cheney. That would set the truthers on fire! |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well, in this world we live in we have physical destruction carried out by people with weapons or their fists, and it is not just the Muslims. It is done by different means. The Christian zealots of America have too much sway in the US and also shove religion down the throats of many in the military.
That's a violation of the constitution, but they don't care, and these people have been behind capital punishment in a zealous way, going to war and invoking God or Jehovah, and you have the zealots for Zion who live on settlements in Hebron, just as you have Hamas going against democracy and firing rockets, and you have Hezbollah harassing Sunnis and Christians in Lebanon and the list goes on and on. The Muslims who engage in such barbarisms are not so sophisticated like modern Jewish and Christian zealots. Christian Evangelicals also do not threaten to kill those who leave their faith, they just insult them. If the scripture could be interpreted to lead to the killing of apostates, they would do it.
Now, Muslims who convert to Christianity should be very careful. Some of them go about bragging how they converted and feel they must confront others with the "truth". That's a risky proposition. Considering that there are fanatical elements (not all) in the community, there is no point in doing that. Of course, not everyone is like those nut cases.
A friend of mine smoked during ramadan in Palestine, and some criticized him, but he was in no danger from people he knew, but he didn't go around smoking in the street, but he didn't hide that he was rather liberal. He just didn't insult and provoke people.
Religious extremists are outdated in their thinking and are insecure people who feel weak if people don't follow their herd. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| somehow makes you a filthy racist "islamophobe". |
You wouldn't be putting words in other people's mouths would you? |
No one is an Islamophobe if they bring up a story of fanatical Muslims unless they claim that all Muslims who practice their religion want to harm people who don't agree with them or abandon the faith. This, in my experiece, is not true. As long as no one is saying that, then you are not being an Islamophobe.
As far as being a religion of peace, I think Arabs play on the that in Arabic, like in Hebrew, there are root letters to form their words. The word Islam comes from the three letters Seen, Lam, Meem or S, L, M.
The word peace or Salam which is similar to the Hebrew word Shalom and the Aramaic Shlama derives from those three letters. Some interpret Islam to mean peace after submitting your will to God. I am no linguistics expert, but possibly the word Arabs use for surrender Istislam may derive from the three root letters.
Again, I am no authority, but am familiar with Semitic tongues, history, culture. Based on my knowledge, I would say if someone says Islam means peace the person is not adding what comes after that which is that you feel peace after surrendering yourself to the will of God. Are their peaceful and tolerant aspects of the religion? Yes. Are their many passages that could be interpreted to foster intolerance and violence?
Yes.
I would say in this modern era many Muslims focus on negative interpretations of their religion to fight colonialism, globalization, and a feeling of helplessness. It is a reactive mode of thinking. Granted, places like Turkey, Jordan, and Egypt are pushing more more moderate interpretations, though it is late coming. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer,
Could you tell me how what we see today is different from the past? In other words, when did the quest for Islamic domination of the known world stop being a pure theological goal and become one of post-colonial grievance?
Manifest destiny is not exclusive to America. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Adventurer,
Could you tell me how what we see today is different from the past? In other words, when did the quest for Islamic domination of the known world stop being a pure theological goal and become one of post-colonial grievance?
Manifest destiny is not exclusive to America. |
That is an extremely interesting question. Of course, the past is different. When the Muslims first emerged they were not on the defensive, the Arab armies were expanding after they beat the Romans, and they believed in spreading their faith. They also espoused more tolerance, in general, vis-a-vis Christians, Jews, Sabeans of Iraq, Samaritans etc.... This tolerance was not initially extended to Hindus.
What changed since the ancient past? Well, when the Muslims became weaker, in general, they were confronted by the Crusaders who ended up losing, because Christians were too busy killing other European Christians and killing the Aramaic speaking Christians except for the Lebanese Christians. The Armenians were also their allies. The Muslims under Saladin, the Kurdish Muslim leader, were rather tolerant.
Contrast Saladin and many of the Imams with Saladin and many of the Sufi inspired leaders of the various Muslim empires and there is a world of difference. European and Western armies were more of the aggressors in some ways in the 20th century through colonialism. You've had Western imperial capitalism confronting the Arab Muslims and others, and they decided to use religion as a rallying cry and socialism.
Socialism didn't work too well, because the US went against the socialists as well as the local Muslims, so the combined force weakened the Left.
Bin Ladin and others are not attacking the West to spread Islam like the armies of the 8th century. They believe it is for liberating the lands they view as Muslim. That's the difference. I am not saying I agree with that.
I think it's a fair analysis. What do we do? We must confront the radicals in the West, incorporate the moderates to help us with that, encourage the Arab governments in their fight against the radicals, promote peace between Syria and Israel and remove the environment that strengthens people like Hezbollah etc.... The fuel needs to be removed the fire.
You can argue the Islam of the 8th century was involved in manifest destiny in an overt way, but it is quite a different situation in the 21st century. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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No it isn't. The aggressive move towards sharia in Europe is merely a new and less violent (the Europeans are surrendering due to the threat of violence) form of manifest destiny.
How about Thailand? The Sudan is significantly more Muslim today than it was in 1900 (and getting more so with each passing day). The Philippines has a Muslim separatist movement, as does China. It is all the same. Grab some land, convert or kill or subjugate the Kafir and then expand to new land.
Nothing has changed. Average Muslims may not explicitly support this, but they sure don't protest when their coreligionists behead a group of Buddhist teachers in Thailand.
The real moderates are despised by the masses. Irshad Manji is one such example. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
No it isn't. The aggressive move towards sharia in Europe is merely a new and less violent (the Europeans are surrendering due to the threat of violence) form of manifest destiny.
[What is the support for Sharia among Muslim Europeans? Some are pushing for it, some are not.
How about Thailand? The Sudan is significantly more Muslim today than it was in 1900 (and getting more so with each passing day). The Philippines has a Muslim separatist movement, as does China. It is all the same. Grab some land, convert or kill or subjugate the Kafir and then expand to new land.
[Thailand is a different situation. What do you know about the situation?
Those areas are not ethnically Thai and were incorporated by the Thais, and they are not equal. Do the research. In China, the Turkic Uighurs are oppressed by the Han Chinese, and they want their ethnic and religious freedom, and you are forgetting the ethnic freedom. They have more in common with people from Kazakhstan then the Chinese. They happen to be Muslims, but they are fighting for independence and not being absorbed just like the Tibetans are doing so. Why is it okay for the Tibetans and not for Turks? You are just engaging in stereotypes
to paint Turkic Uighurs in a certain way, because they don't want to be dominated. They don't care about converting the Chinese.
Nothing has changed. Average Muslims may not explicitly support this, but they sure don't protest when their coreligionists behead a group of Buddhist teachers in Thailand.
The real moderates are despised by the masses. Irshad Manji is one such example. |
Irshad Manji is not a mainstream moderate. Yes, the Muslim population is conservatives, but there are moderates to the right of Manji. She is not the best example. Do people have to agree with her to be moderate?
You can't expect the West and East to be identical. You don't really know the regiont hat well. One of the most popular preachers on satellite is an Egyptian moderate. Why does he have high ratings if the masses are all just fascists?
What is happening in Sudan is horrible and genocide. The government is responsible against black Muslim African Darfuris and has butchered Christians. It is about Arab Muslim Sudanese hegemony in the Sudan. The government has moved somewhat toward peace, but 2 million have died in the Sudan in the past several decades which is crazy. The Arabs haven't spoken about it much, because the Nile goes through the Sudan, and Egypt doesn't want a headache. It doesn't mean Egypt agrees with Khartoum. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
No it isn't. The aggressive move towards sharia in Europe is merely a new and less violent (the Europeans are surrendering due to the threat of violence) form of manifest destiny.
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What you call "the move to sharia law" is, in a lot of places, simply the extension of legal privileges already enjoyed by other faiths. In the UK, for example, there has been for some time a Jewish court, with a state-backed mandate to mediate civil divorces for Jewish couples. And I've heard pretty credibly about at least one case in which a state court denied a divorce to a Jewish woman because her husband had delayed getting clearance through the Jewish court.
So, in a lot of these countries, it's not like the Muslims are just waltzing into a rigidly secular body politic and demanding special treatment. In many cases, the governments in question already maintain a pretty blurry distinction between church and state, so the Muslims can be construed as pretty much just demanding equal treatment. There are exceptions of course, such as France, with traditions of militant secularism. As far as I am aware, Muslim demands for special legal treament have made not much headway in that country. What with scarves being banned along with crosses in the schools. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Come now, Ya-ta... You know as well as I that it would be only a matter of time before someone else said it... |
Ummm...not really. Of course there are dopes who would say that, but they are not speaking for anyone except themselves.
Plig, most of the time you are a rational human being. On this thread you have slid over the precipice. I think you know as well as I do that most people stay home on Friday evening/Sunday morning and sleep in and don't really give a flying f about what the mosque/church says except during certain special holidays. I can only accept that the Moslem extremists are 'right' if you accept that Jerry Falwell etc reflects what you think.
Well? |
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