Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Nowhere Man]

Right. An interesting read.

We have essentially three camps in the debate about the origins of AIDS.

1. http://www.aidsorigins.com/

Edward Hooper- Journalist and Author of The River (1999), a book about OPV theory.

2. http://www.originofaids.com/articles/early.htm

Leonard Horowitz-Chief proponent of HB vaccine theory (plus CIA-AIDS Genocide).

3. "Mainstream Science"- One could call this camp an amalgamation of all the other theories, but let's call them the "Cut Hunter" theorists.

Part I--Edward Hooper and OPV

Hooper states that HIV was accidentally manufactured in the Congo in the late 1950s while scientists there were trying to come up with an Oral Herpes Vaccine (OPV). Unfortunately, they were making cell cultures out of SIV-infected chimpanzees and inadvertently spread SIV to humans.

Note: All camps appear to agree that HIV came from SIV.

Hooper's book caused a great deal of controversy. The scientists from the site denied everything and said they were only using monkey cultures and not chimp. Hooper challenged the scientific community to test the remaining samples from the Congo to see what would be revealed. The scientific community did so. They found the remaining vials from the site to have been produced with monkey cells.

Hooper then went on to describe a vast cover-up.

Scientists tested the chimpanzees living in the area for SIV. They had it. However, their SIV was genetically different from that which is responsible for the HIV-1 pandemic.

Hooper then goes on to suggest that the primates at this site were collected from a 300,000 square-mile radius and not just local ones.

Further points to consider:

1. The OP vaccine itself was actually made in the US, not on-site. The lab there was not intended for OPV development. At least that's the official line on it.

2. The oldest HIV-1 samples have since been dated to between 1915 and 1941 (95% confidence interval)

3. The OPV theory has been tested 39 ways to Sunday and repeatedly rejected.

4. Why would you collect primates from a 300,000 square-mile radius when you have all manner of them living right outside your door?

5. But OK. Maybe they were. As such, this can't be totally ruled out.

6. On the other hand, I'm not sure what science can do at this point to further investigate Hooper's allegations.

Part II--Leonard Horowitz

Leonard says that the scientists got it all wrong going after the OPV theory when they should have been looking at Hepatitis-B vaccines.

Unfortunately, when you look at exactly what Leonard is positing, you see there's a very significant connection between the OPV and his HB vaccines. See, his theory is that HIV was produced by the OPV, then transferred back to the chimpanzees, and then reintroduced to humans in the HB vaccine as a more virulent form.

Too bad all of that hangs on the OPV theory being true.

Further points to consider:

1. How did the OPVHIV get back into the chimps? Did one of the chimps get cut while hunting an infected human? Maybe a human bit a monkey? Since we're colorfully calling the "Cut Hunter" theory the "Monkey Ass Bite" theory. Let's call Lenny's version the "Monkey Bitten Ass" theory.

2. But oh no. Leonard has that base covered: It was Kissinger! Kissinger wanted to depopulate Africa, so he put the HIV back in the apes and then reintroduced it to humans in Central Africa...and gay men in NYC. Cuz, ya know, as long as you're gonna depopulate Africa, you might as well depopulate the gay men in New York.

Note: Bad Kissinger! When you're practicing genocidal bio-warfare, you DON'T RELEASE THE CONTAGION IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY!

3. Leonard also:

a. Warned the government 3 weeks before the anthrax scare that there would be an anthrax scare

b. Is pretty sure the West-Nile virus is a biological attack

c. Has an amazing book about the power of healing:

http://healingcelebrations.com

Part III--"Mainstream Science"

These poor chaps get the bum rap for supporting the "Cut Hunter" theory.

Of course they don't all go for that:

http://www.asm.org/ASM/files/ccLibraryFiles/FILENAME/000000001300/znw00105000015.pdf

Here, Preston Marx, an esteemed virologist, explains that HIV is not considered a zoonotic disease (meaning it's transmitted from animals to humans).

It's not. SIV is. But Marx does go on to make some solid points about how we don't know exactly how SIV successfully transitioned into HIV (in particular the HIV-1 M version that's the root of the current pandemic).

He mentions the Cut Hunter but doesn't seem too impressed. Then he mentions transmission via vaccines. Wait, vaccines? Hey, are you thinking what I'm thinking? Maybe Marx is into the OPV theory or the HB theory!

So we google Hooper Marx HIV and get...

Hooper very angry about the "Marx/Drucker" theory:

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[mindmetoo]

[kabrams]

[mindmetoo]

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[mindmetoo]

[Nowhere Man]

It took quite a while for me to get my head round what Marx's point was in the ASM article.

I think that's partly because his writing isn't so clear but mostly because that article is intended for an audience of microbiologists and he's making a highly technical point.

The point, I'm pretty sure, that he is making is that classification of HIV as zoonotic is wrong. It's wrong because apes don't have HIV. They have SIV. When it gets into humans it becomes HIV. Compare that to rabies. Animals have rabies, and then rabies is transmitted to humans who then have rabies, the exact same disease. That's what he's trying to point out. He then further emphasizes that it's not completely clear how this transformation occurs.

His second point is that most strains of HIV get killed easily by the human immune system. Hence, he wonders how the HIV-1 M strain became so lethal. His theory here is that, after transmission to humans, the virus was repeatedly passed between humans via poor sanitation in African hospitals/vaccine programs. By this, he refers to dirty needles being used repeatedly and contaminated blood transfusions. He believes that this serial passage is what resulted in HIV mutating into the vicious HIV-1 M form.

In one sentence: He thinks that HIV-1 M is the result of an SIV crossover from chimpanzees that was subsequently made deadly by serial passage of the virus via contaminated needles.

His statements about zoonosis are not intended to refute the idea that humans got HIV as a result of contact with chimpanzees.

And he sure as shoe-wax isn't saying that HIV was manufactured.

Still waiting for that evidence.

[Nowhere Man]

Page 5:

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[mindmetoo]

[R. S. Refugee]

The Greek myth is both simple and compelling. Daedalus, imprisoned on the island of Crete with his son (Icarus), fashioned wings made of feathers and wax in order for the two of them to fly to freedom. Daedalus warned Icarus, however, not to fly too close to the Sun because the wax would melt and he would fall. The two of them took off, but Icarus became entranced with flight and, ignoring his father�s warnings, flew higher and higher until the wax melted and Icarus plunged to his death in the sea.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/10/8862/

[It always amazes me how this crowd can take the most tangential, irrelevant part of a story and make it into the whole rasion d'etre of a story. But then I didn't grow up watching and listening to Limbaugh (or doing Hillbilly heroin), so that may explain the discrepancy. ]

[catman]

The AIDS conspiracy theorists are about as pathetic as the Creationists. Both have to rely on a vast conspriacy theory in the world of science for the accusations to make any sense.

[mindmetoo]

[mindmetoo]

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/pdreplyep.htm

Hey, Duesberg, one of the original AIDS denialists, says HIV has been isolated.