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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| All is equal then! No pattern to be seen. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Like they say- you can't use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to get into.
Especially if they have OCD.
And probably too much mekju.
I am more than willing to have a discussion with people who do more than hurl invectives and cut and paste articles.
But I'm out of here on this one.
You know, pearls, swine, etc.
Salaam |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Have a progressive day!
Go to Starbucks, eh?
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Religious police in Saudi Arabia arrest mother for sitting with a man
Saudi men hang out at Starbucks Coffee for men
A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.
Yara, who does not want her last name published for fear of retribution, was bruised and crying when she was freed from a day in prison after she was strip-searched, threatened and forced to sign false confessions by the Kingdom's �Mutaween� police. |
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece
The Saudi's will beat the naivety out of you. Just give them some more time. |
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flip ant
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Location: He's got high hopes!
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
Like they say- you can't use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to get into.
Especially if they have OCD.
And probably too much mekju.
I am more than willing to have a discussion with people who do more than hurl invectives and cut and paste articles.
But I'm out of here on this one.
You know, pearls, swine, etc.
Salaam |
In other words, Desultude doesn't have any facts to back up her position other than her own VERY LIMITED experience in the Magic Kingdom. Keep telling us how well you understand Saudi culture des....we're thrilled. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Where Mises and I differ is that he dreads the day when Western women are completely covered in black. I think it's entirely desirable. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Uh.. Care to elaborate? |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Isn't it ironic? Don'tcha think? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| I don't understand. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Have these Western feminazi apologists of the single biggest cause of human misery under the burqa and in polygamous marriages to violent Muslim men. Let them see what it's like to be a Muslim woman. That's true justice. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Have these Western feminazi apologists of the single biggest cause of human misery under the burqa and in polygamous marriages to violent Muslim men. Let them see what it's like to be a Muslim woman. |
Ah, not all western women but the naive types. Damn right.
When I was in Dubai last time at the big mall there I was standing in line at the food court to get some grub. The lady behind me said "excuse me" with a British accent and I turned around to see a white women, with big blue eyes standing with only portions of her face showing and the rest of her covered by the "tent of womyns progress". We had an interesting conversation with our eyes, as her "son" (boss) pulled her away. Lots was said with no sound. She was pathetic and knew it. She deserved it. I felt satisfaction that justice exists in the world.
I agree Hale. Des, marry a progressive Saudi. You deserve to be woken up. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sincinnatislink wrote:
Perhaps you didn't see the link the first time through, people who continue to shout "OMG ISLAM IS BAD."
It's a religion, and as such it's very easy to use it to do very bad things.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0517/p12s01-wogi.html
Thanks for posting the exact same study for a second time. Did you read my response to when you posted it previously? |
Maybe, and just maybe, the post was not directed at you. 
| Quote: |
| And why post it again in response to (a) an article on Pakistan, (b) an article on Iran (did you even read them?), (c) Mises' articles on specific instances of Islamic extremism (and latterly Iran)? Of what use is that study there? How does it relate? |
I think it relates to the argument that 1 billion Muslims should not be grouped as one. I believe you, Justin, are not arguing that point. However, after citing people like Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, who is a Muslim,
we have your cohorts reverting back to statements such as:
Islam deserves no respect and will get none.
This completely reverts back to "Let's paste the Koran onto everyone" arguments. It demonstrates a total failure to distinguish between militants and moderates.
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| Nobody, no sane or reasonable person, believes the dangerous element to Islam is anything but a minority (possibly a large minority of those living in the West in particular (never had any objective data of Muslims in the Muslim World previously, did we, as the report states correctly and explicitly?)) but a minority, an alarming, violent and totally indecent minority nonetheless. |
Yer, one danger of being an ubermensch is that you miss the bits where you are not the center of attention.
I believe your statements about sanity are highly relevant to the discussion here. Now, are you applying them only to you or to other posters?
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| Refuting a claim that nobody has made is called a strawman argument and re-posting a study that has nothing to do with recent unrelated posts is needlessly uncivil and highly personalized discourse. |
Yes, see posts about the Castro District and an imminently secular bourgeouisie in SA.
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| Is hostility to hostility to religion your religion? |
That's an excellent question that extends beyond this thread. Of course, you're throwing it as an accusation and not a question.
But take a look at sincinnati's posts. I don't think they demonstrate a "hostility to hostility to religion". As such, your implications are a) a strawman and b) needlessly uncivil and highly personalized.
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| If you've some theistic agenda - if you're not a militant anti-theist - I'm not sure I want any business with you at all. |
And who opened shop to you? Despite my posts, I wouldn't characterize myself as a "militant anti-theist". Quite specifically, I don't intend to be hostile to religion for the sake of hostility. If you do, that's your choice, but your above statements add an element of fundametalism that I want to distance myself from.
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desultude wrote:
Damn good stuff!!
Not sure why you'd consider it "damn good stuff" since the study neither includes your beloved Kingdom of Foot Amputations nor your absurd bunkum about dynamic issues, dynamic dynamos or civil societies. |
So, you're saying [in between your strawman ad-hominems] they conducted this survey and didn't poll Saudi Arabia?
AGAIN, Des's points about civil society and dynamics was clearly portrayed in the cultural context needed to be understood that she thinks change is internally taking place in these societies.
Quite apparently, your "militant anti-theist" argument is that no significant change at all is taking place. Again, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
I don't really give a rip that one poster has to return to the UAE every year.
If you're accusing Des of misrepresenting what's happening in Saudi Arabia, then take it upon yourself to spell out what is actually happening there.
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| Did you read the Pakistan and Iran articles posted on this page? I've responded to the CS study and when someone re-posts it all you have to say is "good stuff"? Jesus, seeing these apologists in action is exactly like observing clowns and freaks. |
Listening to you is kind of like listening to a fundamentalist.
But I'm game. I WILL NOT provide my arguments on further threads. Let's do it, and let's do it here.
1st point:
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| * Total de-Islamization of all Muslim theocracies. This'll have to come from within. People often say Islam needs a Reformation. Total crap. Islam needs an Enlightenment and Iran in particular needs a French Revolution - the systematic and meticulous demolition of theocracy. |
Let me take immediate issue with the use of "Islamists" and whatnot. It's completely unnecessary. We're talking about fundamentalists. This is a fair term to describe religious purists of various sects.
As such, calling for a total de-fundamentalization of Islam is placing an ideal that we in the West do not actually have. that brings us to theocracies. How many Muslim countries are actually theocracies? What if they vote to be a theocracy?
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| * Immigration laws such as the one in the EU essentially baring all non-EU citizens from emigrating to the EU. The study I posted previously was skeptical about the effectiveness of this, but it's a start. |
Let the EU decide what it will do. I'm fine with that.
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| * Literalist Islam should be recognized and promoted as a dangerous mental illness. |
Would you be comfortable with militant anti-theism being classified as a mental illness? Your positions become frivolously provocative at times. I see them as frivolously provocative, not intelligent.
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| * Increased toleration for Far Right nationalist groups, since these are infinitely more liberal than Far Right Muslims, since the former don't have an infallible book advocating celestial Stalinism. |
I think this is your best point. In fact, if we totally tolerate the National Front and the Klan, I don't think we'd have much to discuss.
SPLENDID IDEA.
You goof.
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| * Complete end to any moves to appease Muslims on topics such as the teaching of the Holocaust. The UK recently made the teaching of the Holocaust compulsory (I can't believe it wasn't previously), which is very much as things should be. |
So it already happened?
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| * State-sponsored increase in the Total Fertility Rate. The French have done this with some success. |
OK.
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| * Strict surveillance of Muslim areas and Mosques using the very latest technology. |
Suppose 100 years from now, the most serious threat is miltant anti-theists. Do you still want such observation? In America at least, I believe the FBI attempts to infiltrate such groups. As such, I think it's already happening. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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No shortage of dynamic issues here
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The Saudi Interior Ministry should immediately and unconditionally release Matrook al-Faleh, one of Saudi Arabia's leading human rights activists, Human Rights Watch said today. On May 19, Saudi secret police apprehended Dr. al-Faleh on the premises of King Saud University in Riyadh, where he teaches political science. His arrest took place two days after he publicly criticized conditions in a prison where two other Saudi human rights activists are serving jail terms.
......
Saudi authorities in December 2007 arrested blogger Fu'ad Farhan after he called for the release of a group of detained peaceful reform activists. Authorities released Farhan in April 2008 after four months of solitary confinement, but the reformers remain in detention. In May 2008, a critic of the Saudi religious police, Ra'if Badawi, fled the kingdom after receiving death threats and being charged by the Saudi Arabia's prosecution department in Jeddah with "insulting Islam." |
Other than Rteacher's theory of Karmic retribution for disabled and sick children, could there be any more disgusting position than to be a Western, Leftist woman and apologize for this system whilst directly profiting from it? Stay in America and get pregnant, for Heaven's sake. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Nowhere Man, I hate these quote-a-thons, so, having read your post, I'll reply to the points that I remember:
* My comment about a chattering SA bourgeoisie was a cheap shot, an atttempt at humor - not a claim or counterclaim.
* Re-posting the CS study - in the name of "1 billion Muslims should not be grouped as one" - has nothing, absolutely nothing, in the way of relation (let alone rebuttal) to the accusations about Pakistan and Iran that myself and Mises made with our links subsequent to the original posting of the CS study.
* Terribly sorry to hear you're not a militant anti-theist, since I love nothing more than to crank up Tool and jerk off in the name of militant anti-theism - it's the only gig in town. We militant anti-theists have a message - a message of hope for those who choose to hear it, and a warning for those who do not.
* the Klan and the NF are considerably more liberal than any religious person, moderate or otherwise, since the former do not posit celestial Stalinism intrinsically (however I don't support toleration for the NF and KKK because they call for discrimination based on race). What could be more Right Wing than conviction for thought crime in afterlife? There is simply no such thing as a religious moderate. All concerned should be prepared to renounce their belief in (a) conviction for thought crime, (b) the universe is run (and was created) by a genocidal dictator running a barbarous and miserably scabrous regime in Heaven (of all places). If they can't do that, then my position is that the distinction between the religious into fundamentalist and moderate is arbitrary and insignificant. All people living in the West should renounce belief in (a) and (b). Failure to do so will see me whupping their butts. Don't take it personally, though - it's just business. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: ... |
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OOh.
Isn't this somehow unnecessarily personal? Is it uncivilized for you to flap on about points while you ignore other points?
Actually, it's a bit tiresome.
Let's you decide if the Muslim menace is every Muslim or just some.
When your poo-flinging monkeys can reach a consensus, then come make an argument.
Not until then.
-NM |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
No shortage of dynamic issues here
| Quote: |
The Saudi Interior Ministry should immediately and unconditionally release Matrook al-Faleh, one of Saudi Arabia's leading human rights activists, Human Rights Watch said today. On May 19, Saudi secret police apprehended Dr. al-Faleh on the premises of King Saud University in Riyadh, where he teaches political science. His arrest took place two days after he publicly criticized conditions in a prison where two other Saudi human rights activists are serving jail terms.
......
Saudi authorities in December 2007 arrested blogger Fu'ad Farhan after he called for the release of a group of detained peaceful reform activists. Authorities released Farhan in April 2008 after four months of solitary confinement, but the reformers remain in detention. In May 2008, a critic of the Saudi religious police, Ra'if Badawi, fled the kingdom after receiving death threats and being charged by the Saudi Arabia's prosecution department in Jeddah with "insulting Islam." |
Other than Rteacher's theory of Karmic retribution for disabled and sick children, could there be any more disgusting position than to be a Western, Leftist woman and apologize for this system whilst directly profiting from it? Stay in America and get pregnant, for Heaven's sake. |
Oh for Christ's sake, Mr Hale. des is not being an apologist for human rights abuses in the Saudi Kingdom. Go back and read more closely.
You have a good brain in your head. It's a shame you don't use it as much as you could. |
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