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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: Agnostic about atheism |
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Agnostic about atheism
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The strident secularism of Dawkins and Hitchens misses a bigger point. God doesn't have to be great for religion to be worthwhile.
Albert Einstein's letter, containing a short rant about God and the Bible, sold recently for 25 times its expected price - thanks, in part, to professional atheist Richard Dawkins being one of the unsuccessful bidders.
It's long been said that religion is a racket. Sales figures of other anti-God rants - much longer than Einstein's letter to Eric Gutkind - suggest that atheism may be catching up. But is it good for the atheists?
As we know, it helps to have a book in circulation. Dawkins' recent work The God Delusion is nowhere near as big as the Bible, but shifting 1.5m copies is more than respectable. Book sales have a legitimizing effect. It's not just the growing number of readers who may be converted by a polemic. Monetary success confers an impressive, almost magical, aura.
If atheism's a commercial success, associated with a certain kind of high-flying, worldly proselytizer, we may yet see the advent of an atheist sect - reclusive ascetics who wish to distance themselves from the more ostentatious non-believers. Atheist sects? Not as crazy a concept as you might think. In New York, there has even been talk of a "church" - a physical house of non-worship - for atheists. Start a church and, even if you remove all mention of God, a schism seems inevitable.
What would Einstein do? His views on religion can't be summed up in one letter. They were, in some respects, inconsistent. Religion being what it is - huge, ancient, diverse - only the fanatical or the very dim can have a consistent response to its existence. Einstein found religion "childish" but described atheists as creatures who, harboring a grudge, were resistant to "the music of the spheres." In other words, resentful puritans.
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Ah, another thread about *theism! Sorry, I just could not resist. Tehe. What with all the anti-theism we've had on these forums lately, I thought this one was rather apt. I shall now step out of the fray... |
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mikeyboy122
Joined: 28 Feb 2008 Location: namyang
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I always say, "believe what you will". But I'd still like to meet any atheist on his death bed. Talk about changing opinions, quickly. Then you'll believe. I don't know in what, but you'll believe. Amen |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mikeyboy122 wrote: |
| I always say, "believe what you will". But I'd still like to meet any atheist on his death bed. Talk about changing opinions, quickly. Then you'll believe. I don't know in what, but you'll believe. Amen |
And how many atheists do you know who have done this? Who's changing opinions are you talking about? Plenty of Christians die a slow death realizing no god cares about them. Plenty of atheists in foxholes too, or people dragging themselves from the brink of death knowing that no god was going to help them. I openly invite you to my deathbed should it come before yours. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
| mikeyboy122 wrote: |
| I always say, "believe what you will". But I'd still like to meet any atheist on his death bed. Talk about changing opinions, quickly. Then you'll believe. I don't know in what, but you'll believe. Amen |
And how many atheists do you know who have done this? Who's changing opinions are you talking about? Plenty of Christians die a slow death realizing no god cares about them. Plenty of atheists in foxholes too, or people dragging themselves from the brink of death knowing that no god was going to help them. I openly invite you to my deathbed should it come before yours. |
I know one person who was a-religous who converted after a near-death experience. I don't know if this is supposed to be an argument for religion, however. I could easily see it being turned back around against it. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006 Location: Not far from the deep end.
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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There are atheists on this board. But as BB's article suggests, there is already as schism, even on this board. There are atheists, and there are a few self-described "anti-theists." Here is my observation (not be be confused as criticism).
An atheist doesn't believe in God, very simply perhaps because the concept hasn't been satisfactorily proven to him/her through tangible, empirical, and objective means. Period. There is no additional expenditure of energy required to be in this condition.
An "anti-theist" on the other hand, it one who like the fervent Bible Christian, expends a considerable amount of time and energy developing, strengthening, educating, and training themselves to continue being atheists. Just like the Christian will become proficient in the Bible, the authoritative works of the early Church Fathers, treatises by the fathers of the Reformation and training in apologetics, fervent atheists (or"anti-theists") likewise study hard to be proficient in "atheist apologetics" with respective authoritative works in the field, such as Dawkins, Russell, Hitchens and Mackie.
A fervent Christian tries to warn people of the evils of runaway secularism, and sometimes attempts to "save" them.
A fervent atheist tries to warn people about the evils of religion, especially organized religion, but sometimes any type of spiritual belief; it's a similar attempt to also try to "save" people.
I am not trying to rile up either side or anything, I am merely describing my observation of some folks on this board. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I know one person who was a-religous who converted after a near-death experience. I don't know if this is supposed to be an argument for religion, however. I could easily see it being turned back around against it. |
Certainly it goes both ways and is probably based on more of an emotional fear of death. Either 'I don't want this to be the end' or like the atheist apologetics merkurix pointed out 'I don't want to be wrong about there being no after life'. As an atheist I'd hope that I wouldn't change such a position purely on fear. I'd be happy to say goodbye to those I loved and go to sleep for one last time. "What dreams may come.." well if any I hope I'm pleasantly surprised and if there is a God waiting I hope he isn't too vindictive as to not forgive an atheist for using their brain.
Even if the theists are wrong they still may have the last laugh
Going to church may extend life |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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An atheist church is a neat idea. The catholics have wine, we could have kegs. The loony pentecostals have "rock concert" services. We could have rock concerts. We could use the proceeds from the beer and admission revenue from the concerts (tithes, which are tax exempt, of course) to fund crusades against religious lunatics and their massive impact upon politics.
Instead of church bells or azzann (call to prayer) we would have a dude advertising the evenings drink specials. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006 Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| merkurix wrote: |
An atheist doesn't believe in God, very simply perhaps because the concept hasn't been satisfactorily proven to him/her through tangible, empirical, and objective means. Period. There is no additional expenditure of energy required to be in this condition.
An "anti-theist" on the other hand, it one who like the fervent Bible Christian, expends a considerable amount of time and energy developing, strengthening, educating, and training themselves to continue being atheists. [...] |
Interesting. How would you describe agnostics? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
An atheist church is a neat idea. The catholics have wine, we could have kegs. The loony pentecostals have "rock concert" services. We could have rock concerts. We could use the proceeds from the beer and admission revenue from the concerts (tithes, which are tax exempt, of course) to fund crusades against religious lunatics and their massive impact upon politics.
Instead of church bells or azzann (call to prayer) we would have a dude advertising the evenings drink specials. |
I'd go to that. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| A tax exempt bar. Shit, I want to OWN that. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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We already have a church. It's called Ikea and it's as annoying to go to on a Sunday as a Christian church and is as full of as many lost souls and open check books.
Actually this all reminds me of the scene from the Simpson's movie when the dome is lowered and everyone in the church runs out to Moe's, and everyone in Moe's runs out to the church. |
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Quack Addict

Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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A fervent Christian tries to warn people of the evils of runaway secularism, and sometimes attempts to "save" them.
A fervent atheist tries to warn people about the evils of religion, especially organized religion, but sometimes any type of spiritual belief; it's a similar attempt to also try to "save" people. |
There is a story about an atheist talking to a group of people about why he thinks there is no God. At the end a little old lady raised her hand and stated. "sir, my husband died and left me with 3 babies in diapers. Without my faith I couldn't have made it through those tough times. If you take away my Bible what will you replace it with?" The man answered her, "ma'am, i have nothing to give you."
Ahhh...the crux of the matter...evolution gives you nothing. Live.Die. That's it..afterall...your just a glorified monkey. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| A tax exempt bar. Shit, I want to OWN that. |
Yeah. Bars in the West are bullshit. $4 for an import PLUS a tip, that's $5/beer. Unless Yeungling (or a microbrew) is on tap, I ain't drinking domestic. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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My local watering hole has 70+ varieties of bottled beer from all corners of the globe all for 3$. I get Bud, but I hear the others are good too. I'm a terrible tipper.
I try and avoid the chain bars or chain-like bars like they got herpes. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quack Addict wrote: |
There is a story about an atheist talking to a group of people about why he thinks there is no God. At the end a little old lady raised her hand and stated. "sir, my husband died and left me with 3 babies in diapers. Without my faith I couldn't have made it through those tough times. If you take away my Bible what will you replace it with?" The man answered her, "ma'am, i have nothing to give you."
Ahhh...the crux of the matter...evolution gives you nothing. Live.Die. That's it..afterall...your just a glorified monkey. |
Sounds like one of those lazy sermons you get from the no-beer church. Was the atheist's disbelief wrong because he can't give parenting advice? And evolution, don't start that one, most scientists including evolutionists are religious. |
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