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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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 Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Jake_Kim wrote: |
| Matman wrote: |
Where are you getting your information - some teenage chat room? What exactly do you mean "2~3% of risk"? Do you think there's a 2-3% chance of catching vCJD from eating beef older than 24 months? That's nonsense. Americans eat beef older than 24 months and there is no evidence that anyone in the world has ever caught vCJD from eating US beef. There is a 0% chance of catching vCJD from eating US beef. There have been no cases of cows younger or older than 24 months having BSE since 2006.
What do you mean "the beef to-be-supplied to Korean market do not perfectly match with what is being sold in the US"? Your president was on TV saying the beef to be sold in Korea was exactly the same as that sold in the US. No brains, spinal cords or intestines will be exported to Korea. All the potentially infectious parts of the cow are removed and destroyed shortly after the cow is killed. You have been misinformed.
Stop going round in circles and give us some evidence that there is any risk in eating US beef. |
It's not beneficial of you to quote Korean president for your argument because he is the one Koreans are protesting against and demanding to do a better job. Do you trust everything your political leader throw at you word by word? Like, 'There's WMD in Iraq' sort of declaration? Of course you can, word by word, if you choose to. But some people also can choose not to, depending on the issue.
By '2~3%,' I was throwing rough figures and I admit they are not founded figures. Yet, you're strictly relying on statistics which looks good since 2006, but scientists said that vCJD could lie dormant and undetected for years. And is BSE test conducted on every American cow when processed? No. It's a random sampling, up to 2% of the total. You can downplay the recent CNN video if it was provided by some animal rights activists, but you can't be that confident with your numbers if the rest 98% of cows have been processed untested, and the symptom of vCJD can stay dormant for several years. Although I keep my fingers crossed for the sake of people in both countries, your certainty with recent numbers does not merit your argument either.
Still, the scientists tell us it's fully safe if the cow is not too old (whether 24-month criterion is arbitrary or not) and if all the SRM are removed. And I fully respect their research results and opinion. So, I'm not the one who protests against every single piece of US beef or intends to prove that US beef is lethal to everyone. Rather, I could have an American T-bone steak as my dinner only if Korean government revise the agreement to import 'younger than 24-month, SRM removal guaranteed from all 16 parts instead of current 6,' the condition missing from the agreement and the official gazatte at the moment.
What is there too difficult to understand and apply? Nada. |
You're saying it's possible that cows in the US might have BSE even though no cows have shown any symptoms or tested positive for BSE since 2006. In that case it's just as possible that cows in Korea or any other country could be infected with BSE. In spite of this you seem to have no problem eating the spinal cord and intestines of non-US cows, even though the sale of these parts is illegal in most of the world!
Then you cryptically mention something about "SRM removal guaranteed from all 16 parts instead of current 6" which sounds like something you copied and pasted from one of your chat rooms. All the potentially unsafe parts of the cow are removed shortly after being killed. Do you expect them to start cutting off parts of meat that scientists say are perfectly safe just because a few Korean kids with a website demand it? |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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I think the protesters would get a lot of mileage out of protesting the Bush administration's infringement on the freedoms of meatpackers by trying to prevent them from testing more of their beef. Although I feel like American beef is safe, Bush behaves as if there's something to hide. It would be appropriate if the protesters would call him out on it. Instead of protesting American beef as a whole, I believe the protesters would get near-unanimous support if they protested to allow beef from meatpackers who test all of their beef, but ban imports from those who don't.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354710,00.html |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| maximreality wrote: |
| Matman wrote: |
What do you mean "the beef to-be-supplied to Korean market do not perfectly match with what is being sold in the US"? Your president was on TV saying the beef to be sold in Korea was exactly the same as that sold in the US. No brains, spinal cords or intestines will be exported to Korea. All the potentially infectious parts of the cow are removed and destroyed shortly after the cow is killed. You have been misinformed.
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Maybe if you read the April Agreement you might understand the issue better. The agreement states that the parts banned in the US can be imported to Korea.
It is true that the president Lee is trying to downplay the issue and saying the beef will be the same as what US citizens are eating, but according to the contract negotiated it cannot be true. if they can legally import low-quality meat they will. |
If that's true it's not surprising the Koreans are outraged. I'd be pissed off too if I was being asked to eat inferior animal parts banned in other countries. What an idiot this President Lee is. Why didn't he relax the ban step by step - as was done by the EU with British beef back in the 1990s. That way consumers slowly regain confidence until no one sees it as an issue any more. Are you sure the April Agreement says this? If so it's interesting that the issue doesn't get a mention in the western media. |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
I think the protesters would get a lot of mileage out of protesting the Bush administration's infringement on the freedoms of meatpackers by trying to prevent them from testing more of their beef. Although I feel like American beef is safe, Bush behaves as if there's something to hide. It would be appropriate if the protesters would call him out on it. Instead of protesting American beef as a whole, I believe the protesters would get near-unanimous support if they protested to allow beef from meatpackers who test all of their beef, but ban imports from those who don't.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354710,00.html |
In the UK all cows over 30 months old are tested for BSE before being allowed into the food chain. It's unnecessary to test younger cows as the chances of their meat being infectious are so low. It sounds like the US government hasn't learned the lessons from how other countries dealt with the issue. |
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maximreality
Joined: 24 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Matman wrote: |
| Are you sure the April Agreement says this? If so it's interesting that the issue doesn't get a mention in the western media. |
"The new import terms were formulated(20th of May) after the April 18 agreement was revised and supplemented amid an outcry over beef safety. The main points are that Korea now has the right immediately to suspend beef imports if mad cow disease should break out in the U.S., and that the same requirements that restrict specified risk materials (SRM) in the U.S. will apply for beef exported to Korea." - Chosun News.
However, Chosun News failed to mention that the "revised agreement" was merely a letter signed by both parties, which did NOT change the original contract, and it is unclear whether it is legally binding or enforceable. |
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Jake_Kim
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Matman wrote: |
You're saying it's possible that cows in the US might have BSE even though no cows have shown any symptoms or tested positive for BSE since 2006. In that case it's just as possible that cows in Korea or any other country could be infected with BSE. In spite of this you seem to have no problem eating the spinal cord and intestines of non-US cows, even though the sale of these parts is illegal in most of the world!
Then you cryptically mention something about "SRM removal guaranteed from all 16 parts instead of current 6" which sounds like something you copied and pasted from one of your chat rooms. All the potentially unsafe parts of the cow are removed shortly after being killed. Do you expect them to start cutting off parts of meat that scientists say are perfectly safe just because a few Korean kids with a website demand it? |
I said before, I support a tougher regulation on Korean beef as well, but that's a totally different issue.
And now it seems to me that you possess no idea what the main dietary concern is for Korean consumers or you didn't read my first article at all. Koreans have been consuming, for centuries, certain parts of beef that are not sold in other countries, and everything was fine with such a diet until the mad-cow disease emerged and the import of beef started in late 20th century. So you can't blame Korean diet itself in the first place.
And you might want to downplay what I presented, especially 16 parts against 6, but maximreality stated the same thing by:
| maximreality wrote: |
| The agreement states that the parts banned in the US can be imported to Korea. |
And let me list those SRMs for you, according to the OIE standards:
tonsils
intestines
of all age and,
brain
skull
trigeminal ganglia
spinal cord
eyes
distal ileum
dorsal root ganglia
of beef 30-month or older
from 'low-risk countries' such as the US.
But the latest agreement generously (or irresponsibly) exempted:
the vertebrae of the tail
transverse processes and spinous processes of the cervical
thoracic and lumbar vertebrae
median crest and the wings of the sacrum
from the list of SRMs, all of which are known to be banned by the FDA regulation.
This is the 'loosened' regulation I've been saying, covered by major Korean news media as well, and you keep insisting on both markets being supplied with the same US beef.
Are these insignificant, irrelevant parts? To your diet, perhaps. But UK government guideline states that these parts be removed as well, and these are the parts included in beef bone soup/stew among other things. |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Jake_Kim wrote: |
| maximreality wrote: |
| The agreement states that the parts banned in the US can be imported to Korea. |
...
from the list of SRMs, all of which are known to be banned by the FDA regulation.
This is the 'loosened' regulation I've been saying, covered by major Korean news media as well, and you keep insisting on both markets being supplied with the same US beef. |
You conveniently ignore what maximreality later posted:
"The new import terms were formulated(20th of May) after the April 18 agreement was revised and supplemented amid an outcry over beef safety. The main points are that Korea now has the right immediately to suspend beef imports if mad cow disease should break out in the U.S., and that the same requirements that restrict specified risk materials (SRM) in the U.S. will apply for beef exported to Korea." - Chosun News.
So both the US and Korean governments have made a written agreement that no SRM will be exported to Korea. Both markets are being supplied with the same US beef. So the protesters got what they wanted didn't they? Why do they continue to protest? |
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Jake_Kim
Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Matman wrote: |
| You conveniently ignore what maximreality later posted: |
And who conveniently ignored the rest of the quote?
| maximreality wrote: |
| However, Chosun News failed to mention that the "revised agreement" was merely a letter signed by both parties, which did NOT change the original contract, and it is unclear whether it is legally binding or enforceable. |
This might be just his/her 'opinion,' but it doesn't change the fact that this 'revision' in May is, in fact, an MOU. Since when did the international law treated an MOU equivalent to a treaty, when it comes to the enforcement? What Koreans want is a legally binding, revised 'treaty' that has the same legal status and effects as the April agreement, with tougher protective regulation for consumers embedded.
If the US can reflect new terms in an MOU, then they should be able to do so with a treaty (or 'Trade Agreement') as well. And that's what the protestors are demanding. Furthermore, none of the above has been ratified by either of legislative body of each country, so any procedural complication can't be an issue.
Last edited by Jake_Kim on Sat May 31, 2008 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a Korean equivalent to the FDA? Shouldn't they be the ones responsible for ensuring the quality of beef sold in Korea?
For that matter, what are the standards imposed on Korean beef? I've asked once or twice about how places can afford to offer 6,000W all you can eat galbi, and been told the meat is questionable at best |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Jake Kim,
I want to thank you for a well-written and informative response.
Obviously, American beef is basically safe but that which is being imported to Korea also has risks that the average American might not be willing to accept. I really do not understand the insistance of 30+ month old beef. To me, there is something shady going on here. |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| peppermint wrote: |
Is there a Korean equivalent to the FDA? Shouldn't they be the ones responsible for ensuring the quality of beef sold in Korea?
For that matter, what are the standards imposed on Korean beef? I've asked once or twice about how places can afford to offer 6,000W all you can eat galbi, and been told the meat is questionable at best |
According to Jake_Kim Koreans are quite happy to eat spinal cord, even though it's been banned in most parts of the world for over a decade.
Last edited by Matman on Sat May 31, 2008 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Matman
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Jake_Kim wrote: |
| Matman wrote: |
| You conveniently ignore what maximreality later posted: |
And who conveniently ignored the rest of the quote?
| maximreality wrote: |
| However, Chosun News failed to mention that the "revised agreement" was merely a letter signed by both parties, which did NOT change the original contract, and it is unclear whether it is legally binding or enforceable. |
This might be just his/her 'opinion,' but it doesn't change the fact that this 'revision' in May is, in fact, an MOU. Since when did the international law treated an MOU equivalent to a treaty, when it comes to the enforcement? What Koreans want is a legally binding, revised 'treaty' that has the same legal status and effects as the April agreement, with tougher protective regulation for consumers embedded.
If the US can reflect new terms in an MOU, then they should be able to do so with a treaty (or 'Trade Agreement') as well. And that's what the protestors are demanding. Furthermore, none of the above has been ratified by either of legislative body of each country, so any procedural complication can't be an issue. |
The April Agreement wasn't a treaty. It was a written agreement that was amended by another written agreement. It's up to the Korean government to enforce the agreement in Korea. Given the strength of feeling on the issue it's highly unlikely that the agreement won't be enforced.
I think the two governments are to blame for failing to communicate properly with the Korean people but there are obviously people in Korea who don't want any US beef imports and are prepared to spread fear, lies and half-truths to get their way. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: A Korean view on the US beef/demonstration issue |
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| Jake_Kim wrote: |
I can see some of Westerners here eager to bash Korean demonstrators or totally ignorant (or more likely, indifferent) why they're out on the street. I say you folks are missing the point here.
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There's a point? I thought it was just an excuse for 13 and 14 year-olds to stay up late and maybe miss a hagwon class or two seeing as so many of these well-informed portesters are young kids.
Last edited by flakfizer on Sat May 31, 2008 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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howie2424
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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First off thanks to Jake Kim for the having the courage to come on this rather nasty board and defend his position and a further thanks to him for appearing to be somewhat informed and taking a level headed approach to the issue. I don�t agree with you but at least you don�t seem to be part of the hysteria that has surrounded this issue.
peppermint said
| Quote: |
| Is there a Korean equivalent to the FDA? Shouldn't they be the ones responsible for ensuring the quality of beef sold in Korea? |
This is an excellent point. And if there is no Korean FDA equivalent, isn�t eating Korean beef a far riskier proposition than eating US beef?
Jake Kim said
| Quote: |
| What Koreans want is a legally binding, revised 'treaty' that has the same legal status and effects as the April agreement, with tougher protective regulation for consumers embedded. |
If you�re looking for a legally binding safeguard that would ensure that Koreans could block any imports of dangerous beef products you needn�t look any farther than Article XX of the General Agreement on Trades and Tariffs which permits any country to suspend the import of any material which threatens the health of its citizens. GATT would supersede any free trade agreement provisions agreed upon between the US and ROK. This has been pointed out umpteen times in the Korean media but fallen on deaf ears.
see http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2890095 |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Jake Kim has good points regarding the general sentiments of the people who complain about the new beef deal.
| peppermint wrote: |
Is there a Korean equivalent to the FDA? Shouldn't they be the ones responsible for ensuring the quality of beef sold in Korea?
For that matter, what are the standards imposed on Korean beef? I've asked once or twice about how places can afford to offer 6,000W all you can eat galbi, and been told the meat is questionable at best |
My impression is that the safest beef you can have in Korea is Australian or kiwi beef. I will look for more info on this.
By the way, here is an old thread where I collected some arguments against the US beef importation deal.
Fighting back against the mad cow craziness |
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