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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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 Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: plural/singular question |
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was helping a KOTEX with a writing sample
and here is a structure he used
".... presenting grammatical points and practicing language..(something something. which I forget) IS/ARE not efficient.
I know the use of "and " and linkage creates a plural, but "are" just sounded wrong to me in this example..
so I added . "are not efficient APPROACHES"..
adding "approaches" made the plural "correct" for me, but had I not added it..??
I would have gone with the singular.. because though I was using "and" to link two examples.. I was presenting both examples as ONE overall approach.
what sayeth you? |
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Been There, Taught That
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Mungyeong: not a village, not yet a metroplex.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: plural/singular question |
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| bogey666 wrote: |
was helping a KOTEX with a writing sample
and here is a structure he used
".... presenting grammatical points and practicing language..(something something. which I forget) IS/ARE not efficient.
I know the use of "and " and linkage creates a plural, but "are" just sounded wrong to me in this example..
so I added . "are not efficient APPROACHES"..
adding "approaches" made the plural "correct" for me, but had I not added it..??
I would have gone with the singular.. because though I was using "and" to link two examples.. I was presenting both examples as ONE overall approach.
what sayeth you? |
This sounds like a phrase, as if the student is not stressing two separate activities, and therefore the phrase is singular. Two separate and distinct tasks going on would describe different efforts, and would be deserving of a plural. You have to determine how many activities are being outlined.
But I think your solution works, as well. |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: plural/singular question |
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| Been There, Taught That wrote: |
| bogey666 wrote: |
was helping a KOTEX with a writing sample
and here is a structure he used
".... presenting grammatical points and practicing language..(something something. which I forget) IS/ARE not efficient.
I know the use of "and " and linkage creates a plural, but "are" just sounded wrong to me in this example..
so I added . "are not efficient APPROACHES"..
adding "approaches" made the plural "correct" for me, but had I not added it..??
I would have gone with the singular.. because though I was using "and" to link two examples.. I was presenting both examples as ONE overall approach.
what sayeth you? |
This sounds like a phrase, as if the student is not stressing two separate activities, and therefore the phrase is singular. Two separate and distinct tasks going on would describe different efforts, and would be deserving of a plural. You have to determine how many activities are being outlined.
But I think your solution works, as well. |
that is PRECISELY what I thought (not stressing the two separate activities, but the KOTEX was using are.. and asked my why "is".
Since I couldn't give him a good answer to the question (they like their "rules", I made the plural answer good by adding the plural "approaches".
this concept of "one" is also why I insist using "media" as a singular when I am talking about the "mass media" in say political discussions..
I won't say "the mass media are distorting the story", unless I want to emphasize the many different media outlets. but when talking about the media as a whole.. I insist on using the singular.
language purists and the British of course say this is wrong, but their reasoning will go the way of the do-do bird.. as it already has with datum/data. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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"Presenting" and "practicing" are gerunds, and hence nouns connected by "and" which are the subject of the sentence, i.e. the subject is plural, so "are" is correct.
Now, if you said,
"The approach of presenting grammatical points and practicing language...,"
"approach" would be the singular subject, and hence "is" would be correct. |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
"Presenting" and "practicing" are gerunds, and hence nouns connected by "and" which are the subject of the sentence, i.e. the subject is plural, so "are" is correct.
Now, if you said,
"The approach of presenting grammatical points and practicing language...,"
"approach" would be the singular subject, and hence "is" would be correct. |
agreed, but what messed it up for me was what came after "practicing" (I don't recall the phrase/words used at the moment)
had it simply been presenting and practicing, then I'd have immediately used "are".
in any event, I was uncomfortable with leaving it like that.. so put in approaches (or would put in approach as you suggested) |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: Re: plural/singular question |
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It's difficult to answer you query, as you didn't indicate the subject of the sentence that you're asking a question about - I assume the ellipsis at the beginning of the fragment indicates a missing component.
If the sentence were to begin with a singular subject, as in A teacher..., then it requires the singular verb and would read, "A teacher presenting grammatical points and practicing language [] is not efficient." If, however, the subject is plural, as in Teachers..., then it requires the plural form of be and should read, "Teachers presenting grammatical points and practicing language [] are not efficient."
If the sentence reads, "Presenting grammatical points and practicing language are [] not efficient," then the sentence is wrong because the transitive verb are lacks a direct object, which you added by suggesting it be completed with the noun approaches. If this is the case, then you require the plural form of be because, as bcaspar has suggested, the compound subject is composed of two gerunds and is therefore plural.
Presenting = gerund (a verb functioning as a noun)
grammatical points = direct object of action expressed in gerund
and = coordinating conjunction
practicing = gerund
language = direct object of action expressed in gerund
| bogey666 wrote: |
this concept of "one" is also why I insist using "media" as a singular when I am talking about the "mass media" in say political discussions.. |
Most people will agree with you here; in colloquial English speakers often use the singular form of the verb following a Greek/Latin plural subject. However, in formal English, regardless of whether you're British or American, you'll find usage corresponding to the conventions set forth in style guides and prescriptive grammars.
| bogey666 wrote: |
language purists and the British of course say this is wrong, but their reasoning will go the way of the do-do bird.. as it already has with datum/data. |
The New York Times disagrees: DATA ARE ELUSIVE ON THE HOMELESS |
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bogey666
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Location: Korea, the ass free zone
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: Re: plural/singular question |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
It's difficult to answer you query, as you didn't indicate the subject of the sentence that you're asking a question about - I assume the ellipsis at the beginning of the fragment indicates a missing component.
If the sentence were to begin with a singular subject, as in A teacher..., then it requires the singular verb and would read, "A teacher presenting grammatical points and practicing language [] is not efficient." If, however, the subject is plural, as in Teachers..., then it requires the plural form of be and should read, "Teachers presenting grammatical points and practicing language [] are not efficient."
If the sentence reads, "Presenting grammatical points and practicing language are [] not efficient," then the sentence is wrong because the transitive verb are lacks a direct object, which you added by suggesting it be completed with the noun approaches. If this is the case, then you require the plural form of be because, as bcaspar has suggested, the compound subject is composed of two gerunds and is therefore plural.
Presenting = gerund (a verb functioning as a noun)
grammatical points = direct object of action expressed in gerund
and = coordinating conjunction
practicing = gerund
language = direct object of action expressed in gerund
| bogey666 wrote: |
this concept of "one" is also why I insist using "media" as a singular when I am talking about the "mass media" in say political discussions.. |
Most people will agree with you here; in colloquial English speakers often use the singular form of the verb following a Greek/Latin plural subject. However, in formal English, regardless of whether you're British or American, you'll find usage corresponding to the conventions set forth in style guides and prescriptive grammars.
| bogey666 wrote: |
language purists and the British of course say this is wrong, but their reasoning will go the way of the do-do bird.. as it already has with datum/data. |
The New York Times disagrees: DATA ARE ELUSIVE ON THE HOMELESS |
appreciate the feedback, I'll try to get the complete sentence tomorrow
re data/datum though.. I have researched this thoroughly and the growing consensus is that datum will soon go the way of the do do bird 
it is even disappearing now in scientifice journals, its last refuge. the NYT seems to me, was trying to emphasize the different sets of data.. the fact there are many sets of stats/data, rather than treating is as a singular mass, where the singular would then be ok to use. if your emphasis is on variety and quantity, then by all means use the plural.
of course, the Brits will serve as the last refuge.. they're quite pedantic on this stuff, though they do things that drive Americans crazy, like treat the team name or company name (which would be singular to Americans) as a plural.
for e.g. England were not prepared to play.
drives me fucking nuts. |
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