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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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On the whole, Affirmative Action has been a success, although not as fast and not as completely as was hoped when it was instituted. Significant portions of the non-white population have been brought into the economic mainstream. With continued progress for another few decades the program can be dropped.
To lose out on a scholarship, loan or what have you because of varying standards based on race or gender is frustrating, aggravating and infuriating. However, the response one chooses does not have to be a feeling of victimization. We all have a choice in how we respond to the obstacles and problems in life.
I'm going to be the conservative on this issue. Don't change Affirmative Action until a better program with fewer downsides is on offer. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am going to concur with the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Grutter. The majority cited a UN Commission report to support its position that using racial criteria is undesirable. The decision gave reluctant deference to the University of Michigan, but indicated that affirmative action would not be desirable within 25 years.
A much better selector for college admissions would be poverty and the environment in which the would-be student was raised. Race alone should not be a criterion. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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indicated that affirmative action would not be desirable within 25 years.
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Thanks for that. It's nice to see the Supreme Court and the UN Commission agree with me. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
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| I imagine you could probably tell us exactly how long it has been, no? |
Yesh. You were a Democrat the last time the Flame Warriors were posted. 
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| I can't keep in mind what I never had in mind. I don't associate Gopher with any of the above. But, even if that were an accurate portrayal of our furry little friend, |
Well, I'm not sure what's inaccurate about it. Maybe you should ask him about those things the next time you're flirting with him on the pm.
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| it wouldn't justify Bobster's underhand tactics, which I have seen used against other posters and have firsthand experience of myself. With his spurious and often down right dishonest accusations of racism and sexism, he contributes to a world where real racism and sexism can be taken less seriously. |
I don't associate the Bobster with underhand tactics. Even if it were accurate to describe the Bobster as acting underhand, you have Gophie-poo's MO. You've been the target of that as well, but maybe it's been a while now, eh? You have this detente where you come and play human shield for him, and, in exchange, you're the one person on this board who can talk about Hezbollah without our professor friend getting all up in your grill about you being a dangerous far left whacko.
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And anyway, today I am Netiquette Nazi! |
More like Girlfriend.
Anyway, the questions that have been posed but not answered are now safely buried back there. Continue and pretend they were never asked. |
Ha! Nowhere man, I have had the best laugh on this forum in ages! Maybe you really are Gopher's wife, and a very suspicious and jealous one at that!
I also recall standing up for you on a thread very recently. Does this also make you my boyfriend?
You don't see Bobster's tactics as underhand because you've never paid close attention to him. I used to have a fair amount of respect for Bobster, until I saw him use very similar tactics on other posters, including myself - where he bizarrely accused me of harbouring racist feelings towards asian women. Appararantly when I see an Asian woman, I see some kind of sex toy walking toward me. This was indeed news to myself. One of the most appalling slanders that I can remember being the recipient of. But probably just projection, eh Bobster? And based on the most spurious of reasoning, he even made accusations that I supported terrorism for the advancement of animal rights. Which was also news to me.
If he would stick to truth and fact, and not invent other posters' views and prejudices, I might go back to respecting him again. I don't see eye to eye with Gopher on much with regards to politics, but I've certainly never seen him as misogynist or xenophobic. There is some really foul misyogny on these forums, and to his credit, I've never seen Gopher participate in it. So yes, I'm going to stand up for Gopher in that regard. Even though my views on this topic are more in line with Bobster's than Gopher's. Why fancy that. I'm not going to let Bobster get off scot free with his fanciful nonsense. Or perhaps Bobster is your boyfriend? PM my regards, next time you flirt with him, then.
As for Gopher not arguing with me on these forums - that will be the day. If we haven't had a fight in while, that's because I've not had the time for it.
As for you, Nowhere man. I still like you.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| I am going to concur with the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Grutter. |
It seems like the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause always comes up in such cases. Seems to be one of the most effective weapons for promoting social justice across the board in America. Seems like everytime I read something on things taking a turn for the better, especially in civil rights matters, plaintiffs, defendants, and courts alike cite this amendment.
How do they discuss it in law school these days, Kuros. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, my little Gophie-poo!
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Go away, please. I never talk to you like that. In fact, I will slam you as a Hezbollah apologist and a terrorist lover if you ever call me "Gophie-Poo" again -- except in our pm love affair, of course, where all of that is fine. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| I love it when you play hard to get. *Swoons and giggles girlishly...* |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| I am going to concur with the 2003 Supreme Court decision in Grutter. |
How do they discuss it in law school these days, Kuros. |
Con Law is next year, I'll let you know.
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| It seems like the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause always comes up in such cases. Seems to be one of the most effective weapons for promoting social justice across the board in America. Seems like everytime I read something on things taking a turn for the better, especially in civil rights matters, plaintiffs, defendants, and courts alike cite this amendment. |
That's because the 14th Amendment is the Federal government's door into influencing state policies. Without it, there wouldn't be Federal jurisdiction on issues like abortion, voting policies, minority rights, etc. Without the 14th Amendment, the State Constitutions would have the last word on just about every social issue (which is what Ron Paul wanted). But, the equal protection clause protects individuals' rights against oppression from state governments. So, I believe it is a friend to true libertarians, and almost all other Americans, as well. |
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little mixed girl
Joined: 11 Jun 2003
Location: shin hyesung's bed~
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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rawr...
i just wrote out a long reply and it was deleted! grr....
gopher:
my username is one that i chose to allow other users to know basic information about myself.
i've never used my race or username as anything other than what it is.
i also visit forums where there are users that have names like hakujin(white person in japanese), or some variation of.
i have no problem with that.
i've also seen usernames and avatars that identify the poster as male or female, i don't see why that would be an issue either.
my basic point is that america can't just arbitraily decide that racism is over just because we have laws against discrimination.
you, as a white male, have no evidence that you and others like you were denied anything *because* you were white males.
has any white male recieved a letter from a government agency, workplace or university stating that, "unfortunately, because you are a white male, you have been denied xyz"?
i have a feeling that i was denied scholarships because i was half-white, but i have no evidence.
perhaps, there was someone who wrote a better essay than me.
for as much confidence a person has in themselves, there's probably someone who's doing it better out there.
when it comes to jobs, the other guy could have been any race. and even if i had slightly better qualifications, maybe he had something personality-wise that i didn't.
the pool of applicants is also larger. competition is tougher.
from what i've seen, an employer will not hire someone that they think isn't qualified for the job. whether or not they are good at it is something different.
and, what i've seen anyways, that trumps even good qualifications is whether or not the person doing the hiring likes you or not.
affirmative action also incorporates socioeconomic levels and many other factors. would you be opposed to poor people getting a boost in education and other areas?
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| It also furthers the general thrust of my position on the primary historical agency that needlessly continues to make race, class, and gender such a high-profile issue as it is in American society today. |
why do you think it's not an issue?
or do you think it's an issue that shouldn't be touched on.
if you're going to blast a person for being poor, you should understand the circumstances around why they are in poverty. |
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jaykimf
Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Little Mixed Girl: I find it unfortunate but still very insightful that you have chosen to blatantly reduce yourself on this message board to a name that advertises your race and sex/gender, where they need not ever have been disclosed, and where, in fact, the vast majority here choose not to do so. |
You think it's unfortunate that she chose a screen name that indicates she is a female of mixed race? I don't see anything wrong with that. I do find it insightful and fortunate that you have chosen to blatantly reduce yourself to a name that advertises you as a large burrowing rodent.
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: ... |
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Nowhere Man wrote:
Wow, we haven't seen those for a long time. How original.
Well, Blowhard, are you going to answer questions, or are you just gonna get all Crybaby like you usually do around me?
Nowhere man, I just let out a cough. |
Please turn your head next time.
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| This is a violation of the TOS. |
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/blowhard.htm
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/crybaby.htm
If these are violations of the TOS, then so is this:
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| Drat! Archivist strikes again! |
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| I do not want to remind posters of civility. |
You don't remind me of civility. You remind me of Cotton Mather.
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| Those who ignored on here lost their privileges to post on here. It's your choice. You have been warned before about this time and time again. |
I have been warned time and time again?
The first warning I recall was you telling me not to flame Kuros when I wasn't. The second is right now. That makes 2, which happens to be equal to the number of times Gopher has used f*** without being singled out. But maybe this is the second and third time because, per your pm, Gophie-Poo was "over the top". Unlike f***
And how bout that plan to get more women in CE?
This:
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| Little Mixed Girl: I find it unfortunate but very insightful that you have chosen to blatantly reduce yourself on this message board to a name that advertises your race and sex/gender, where they need not ever have been disclosed, and where, in fact, the vast majority here choose not to do so. |
looks like a surefire way to turn the CE forum into this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g3ZvgWogWc
And it's oh so civil. I just let out a cough.
Yup. I might mention all of the TOS violations you're doing nothing about other than to come tell CE that we're not so bad, but I won't. Because that's really a mod's role: strutting about, swinging his cajones around, praising the unwashed masses, and going after those who don't kow-tow.
Canuckistan was and is a better mod than you.
Io non mangio in questo merdaio.
Chew on that, and I'll see some of you elsewhere.
Last edited by Nowhere Man on Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| little mixed girl wrote: |
| my basic point is that america can't just arbitraily decide that racism is over just because we have laws against discrimination. |
"Arbitrarily?" I and many others rely on the significant and I dare say decisive gains that followed LBJ's reforms in, among other areas, civil rights and immigration, especially after the mid-1960s. As Kuros and I discuss, above, the Fourteenth Amendment's equal protection clause has functioned and continues to function as an extremely powerful weapon for social justice. I also rely on indicators that show, for example, African-Americans not only vote and serve on juries everywhere in America. But they also hold public office at all levels -- that is, federal (including in the White House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court), state, and local. They teach school, practice law, and serve as police officers and firefighters as well. And yesterday, an African-American effectively won the Democratic nomination for President.
So African-Americans and any other "minority," for that matter, are in a position and have the tools to litigate in federal, state, and local context and do all kinds of other things (NAACP campaigns, etc.). I have not "arbitrarily decided that racism is over," then. You, on the other hand, are arbitrarily deciding that the War against Racism must go on forever.
When you and those like you insist on continuing to institutionalize the War against Racism and its primary weapons, including but not limited to affirmative action, you entirely ignore these gains. I find it reassuring that at least two posters here talk about ending affirmative action entirely in 25 years or so.
They also recognize affirmative action's dark side and harmful effects. It fuels resentment. And as I have argued here, it, among other things, extends "racism's" life unnaturally. Look at the OP again and see how the War against Racism now contributes towards whites' choosing the safe path of avoiding African-Americans when they can, to avoid being called "a racist."
How are ideas and policies that lead whites to conclude that the safest path for them is to avoid African-Americans when they can helpful in the War against Racism? Again, these ideas and policies, for whatever they may accomplish, they also institutionalize difference and drive wedges between "the races."
Finally, the hypersensitivity surrounding this issue is very relevant for those of us who post here. Not only do posters such as Bobster hurl "racist" and "bigot" around left and right. But, although I do not remember when exactly, in the recent past a mod calling herself "Captain Caveman" or something similar started calling all kinds of things "racism" and moving against them here. The entire thing, Little Mixed Girl, has become quite McCarthyesque.
You and others have created and institutionalized the War against Racism, then. But you have also, at times, moved to suppress discussion and criticism as "racist." You are strong-arming the debate when you do that.
And I do not believe you have addressed my objections, as I raised them, inasmuch as you have continued to restate your position. You close your post with "if you're going to blast a person for being poor..." I believe you most likely used "you" in the impersonal sense, and in that case I agree with the sentiment. One should not blast the poor for being poor. But on the off-chance that you are saying that I blast the poor for being poor, then that would mischaracterize my politics -- and it would also represent another case of the strong-arm tactics I reference, above. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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Obama was asked if he thought his daughters should be given preferential treatment for college admissions based upon their race. After all, are his kids underprivileged in any way? He said no, and mused that maybe AA is better suited for class than race. I strongly agree.
Here is a good NPR Intelligence Squared Debate about AA:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16337441
The whole debate is 50min long and really covers all the ends. I agree with most of the positions for and against. But ultimately class is race-blind (though more blacks are poor). Uplift is important, but needs to be fair. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jaykimf wrote: |
| You think it's unfortunate that she chose a screen name that indicates she is a female of mixed race? |
That is right. Again, it introduces race, class, and/or gender markers into an environment where they were not present before (this forum; does Dave ask users to identify themselves by race, class, and/or gender when they create an account here?). In a nutshell: leftists' divisive, racial, class-conflict, and sexual-oppression politics. And they tend to work out like this: whites, especially white, heterosexual males, figure as the villains, the murderers, the exploiters, the ones who get into universities, corporations, and national leadership positions without ever having to do anything but just be white guys; non-whites figure as the heroes and the victims, the historical actors in great historical dramas of resistance, defiance, and rebellion, etc. This is why we are more likely to see "Little Mixed Girl" (and her defenders) than "Big White Guy" (who would very quickly just become a target), I imagine. And yeah, I think it is unfortunate.
"Gopher," was first a character in Caddyshack and then a Marine nickname, by the way. |
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