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Winning the war in Iraq: Yes, we can!
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Will we win in Iraq?

Yes

20%

[ 8 ]

Maybe

17%

[ 7 ]

61%

[ 24 ]

Total Votes : 39

Author

Message

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject:

Kimbop wrote:

THat's the million dollar question, ain't it? We have to TRY and spead logic. Tabula rasa, I s'pose.

Sounds cynical, but I'm deadly serious: the US has not displayed even an ounce of logic in its foreign policy toward the mideast at least since WW2. We favor democracy but we prop up hereditary monarchs in Kuwait and Saudia Arabia. We believe in freedom of religion, but we do business with countries and cultures that are theocracies. We support Saddam Hussein for 20 years then invade him twice, and watch him be hanged on the internet. We are attacked by terrorists in Afghanistan, so we invade its neighbor without finishing the job there. We fight to keep our freedoms, sacrificing our sons and daughters to that goal, then enact no-fly regulations with no oversight and no appeal and allow the Homeland Security guys to know what books we check out of the library, and much much more.

Can we get a little of that logic at home before we spread it around ... please?

"Tabula rasa" sounds a whole lot like "kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out." I sure hope that's not what you meant.

The Soviet Union fell apart because their economic system went kerflooey on them, as it would have eventually mujehedin or not. Everybody knows this. Why else did China give up on it's centralized economy? It doesn't work, that''s why.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Kimbop wrote:

THat's the million dollar question, ain't it? We have to TRY and spead logic. Tabula rasa, I s'pose.

Sounds cynical, but I'm deadly serious: the US has not displayed even an ounce of logic in its foreign policy toward the mideast at least since WW2. We favor democracy but we prop up hereditary monarchs in Kuwait and Saudia Arabia. We believe in freedom of religion, but we do business with countries and cultures that are theocracies. We support Saddam Hussein for 20 years then invade him twice, and watch him be hanged on the internet.

Speaking of logic... when it came to Saddam those were DIFFERENT adminstrations. America is not some monolithic never-changing organization and you know that, so please don't trot out this line. It sounds like you think that once an Administration has supported a dictator that ALL future Adminstrations are obliged to do so as well or at least not oppose him

"Tabula rasa" sounds a whole lot like "kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out." I sure hope that's not what you meant.

Tabula rasa means blank slate. You should know that
.

The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

Speaking of logic...those were DIFFERENT adminstrations.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:46 am Post subject:

The Cost of War

Quote:

I felt like there was this enormous reduction in my compassion for people. The only thing that wound up mattering is myself and the guys that I was with. And everybody else be damned, whether you are an Iraqi - I'm sorry, I'm sorry you live here, I'm sorry this is a terrible situation, and I'm sorry that you have to deal with all of, you know, army vehicles running around and shooting, and these insurgents and all this stuff.

Saddam is gone. Hope for a true democratic transition is slim. The troops should leave as soon as possible.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:01 am Post subject:

Yes we can, fiveeagles? First, you're Canadian. Last time I checked Canada wasn't involved in Iraq. Second, you're teaching English god knows where. You're contribution to the war effort is?

JMO

Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:49 am Post subject:

Kimbop wrote:

Not only Jews, but gays, drunks, apostates, and women who show their elbows. To answer your question, no, Islam has not killed 5 million Jews in the past 12 years. This however doesn't prove that Islam is not as evil. I gave you only two examples of mass murder in the name of Allah that happened TODAY. Achmedinejad has continually called for the eradication of Israel; what do you think he would do if Israel had no friends? .

He can call all he wants. the fact is that they can't eradicate Israel. Which is why the Nazis were more dangerous. Its why your cuckoo schemes aren't dangerous also. They have no chance of actually happening.

Quote:

They are. Check out religionofpeace.com for a start.

what are they? How many countries has Islam conquered in the last go12 years? how many people have they killed? Lets compare.

Quote:

I don't know this. I only hope this happens. And I hope that someone like Umm Nidal is not elected.

Children hope. Adults should be more realistic.

Quote:

THat's the million dollar question, ain't it? We have to TRY and spead logic. Tabula rasa, I s'pose.

You don't actually have a plan? Much like the US government then. This will not end well.

Quote:

Ask again in in ten years, when Iraq will be a proud, secular, rich, democratic country, full of modern infrastructre and Irish social programs. Hopefully their neighbors will be as well. Or, if you have your way; it might become Ayatollah Wackistan's Islamic Republic of Iraq, and human existence would suffer another setback. And baby Jesus would cry.

Ten years? How much do you want to wager on this outcome?

Quote:

DOn't be silly! What you just typed makes me want to gag. You do not deserve the freedom you enjoy

Maybe I don;t. Its not something that I gained or worked for. I was basically just born there.

Quote:

Ireland has won nobel prizes

People born in Ireland won nobel prizes. I've actually met two of them(seamus heaney and john Hume) and walked across Hume;s garden many, many times(its a right of way to the beach). They are good people, but I'm sure they would be pretty similar if born elsewhere.

Quote:

has been peacefully united,

Ireland is still seperated.

Quote:

If Ireland is no better than a middle-eastern country I DARE you to move to syria.

You dare me? Then I have to do it obviously. How old are you again?
I live in Korea now and I'll probably live in different country. I don't tend to get too attached.

Quote:

I also dare you to insult an immigrant to your country by insinuating that Irish freedom is no better than Islamic oppression!

Funnily enough I only talked about football and the like to immigrants in my area. Same as anyone else. People are the same everywhere.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Quote:

Speaking of logic...those were DIFFERENT administrations.

Foreign policies tend to retain a certain amount of stability from one administration to the next, partly because it's formulated and carried out by career diplomats who keep their jobs no matter who is in the the White House. You know that. And the things I cited woul seem to lack any obvious logic - you know that, also.

Mostly though it's because certain national interests are protected. However national interests can change which means that foreign policies can also change. Again regardless of past Administration decisions this in NO way obligates Bush to carry on the same position. I do not see this as being illogical. Every Administration has the right to formulate their own foreign policies regardless of the past Administration(s).

You might wanty to ask the poster why no distinction is being made between Islam as a faith and the more recent radical, fanatical form that is called Wahabbism - I think it's because he sees none. He wants to eradicate Islam. Period.

I know what tabula rasa means. Thank you. I'm not sure how he proposes to eradicate Islam except by means of genocide of its adherents. Throughout history, this is the one sure-fire way of making religions disappear. You know that.

He already said by the use of "logic". One would assume that means reason as opposed to genocide. I don't see how logic=genocide

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject:

The Bobster wrote:

Kuros wrote:

The chickenhawk meme is a blunt way to shame people who support the war on a message board. It was this kind of rhetoric that turned many Americans off from the anti-war crowd.

I rather agree with this. I think you only need to be an American to be entitled to an opinion about the war. My own annoyance is at people from Canada, England, Oz etc., who cheer on the bushers to ever more bloodshed, never having to care a whit that a kid from their own hometown might end up as IED fodder.

We already discussed this. There are people from all of those above countries who are in Iraq. Not only Americans. And what about Iraqis? I guess they aren't entitled to an opinion about the war either? You took this position a while back and it was proven indefensible. It still is.

Sorry if that describes anyone here. It's just how I feel about it, that it's cheap and easy to support a war where neither you nor anyone you know has anything at risk. If you are not American, and you support Bush's war, you'd better have some other kind of cred working for you.

Again this is absolute nonsense. Britain has sent troops to Iraq so has Australia. The families of those troops have more at risk than any American who has none of his relatives over there.

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

Yes we can, fiveeagles? First, you're Canadian. Last time I checked Canada wasn't involved in Iraq. Second, you're teaching English god knows where. You're contribution to the war effort is?

lol.

Hey, we are all involved in this war. And I think it's a huge mistake to leave before it's done. It's obvious that the surge is working and that Iraq's politics are starting to happen. All the naysayers don't want to look wrong and so they don't want to admit this war is being won.

I voted the conservatives into office. Last time I checked, we are still in Afghanistan.

So what happened to my whiteboard software?

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

they don't want to admit this war is being won.

I see you're still making claims of victory but have yet to state what constitutes a victory.

If supporters of the war like you are unable to express the conditions that mean victory, how will you know when we have achieved them?

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

they don't want to admit this war is being won.

I guess some of the keys of true victory will be:

1. A true justice system. When the judges are impartial to popularity.

Hard to measure, but will become more and more apparent when criminals are fairly judged. I think this will become more apparent when the Iraq people feel safe and can open up businesses as the US can.

2. A government that is for the people.

Still too corrupt. However, as the US sacrifices more and more, hopefully the politicians realize that this is about their people. There has to be Martin Luther Kings within this population. It only takes one and if one steps out, then this country will be reformed. If there ever was a need for a great voice to rise up in the world's history...it's now. Especially to overcome the hatred that is coming from Iran and Russia.

3. Education.

Kids have to feel safe and continue to learn. As the saying goes "children are the future." Build the country around the children. Make sure that the next generation will die for their democracy.

4. Churches/Mosques

Keep the churches protected and allowed to help the people. Work with them to build up the social networks. Allow a true value system to be taught to the people rather than Sadr's message of hatred.

5. Oil Revenue

Get control of the oil revenues and start using them appropriately. Use these revenues to build the infrastructure. Beautify the country.

So obviously, there is a ton more, but I guess you leave the country when you know that they are ready for the keys. It's coming, but a few years away.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:53 am Post subject:

Quote:

So obviously, there is a ton more, but I guess you leave the country when you know that they are ready for the keys. It's coming, but a few years away.

I notice that not a single one of your points is a military objective. So I have to ask, what role does the US military have in achieving each of these civil objectives and why are US tax payers expected to foot the bill (not to mention shed the blood)?

It's remarkable that when asked what 'victory' means you fail to mention any military objectives at all, yet the US really only has military power in Iraq.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:55 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

So obviously, there is a ton more, but I guess you leave the country when you know that they are ready for the keys. It's coming, but a few years away.

Didn't the US sort of win the cold war? The war on terror will be won by an observation of the strategic situation.

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Quote:

So obviously, there is a ton more, but I guess you leave the country when you know that they are ready for the keys. It's coming, but a few years away.

Didn't the US sort of win the cold war? The war on terror will be won by an observation of the strategic situation.

Exactly. The rise of oil is going to break either the corrupt opec or the USA. Hopefully the USA has enough liquidity, like it did during the cold war, to weather this storm. OPEC knows that the USA is about to establish a democracy in IRAQ. It's only hope is to break the US's economy.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Didn't the US sort of win the cold war?

I've always heard the strategies for winning a cold war and a hot war are different. But be that as it may.

fiveeagles, since your standards of winning are entirely non-military, would I be right to conclude that you simply like war for the sake of war?

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