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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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This post is addressed to anyone but Bobster, who has proved himself to be an unreasonable and cantankerous fool who misappropriates people's words and misrepresents their position. I once had a good opinion of him, even if I thought he was a little zealous at times. Now I realise that he one of the most unreasonable posters on this board. It is pointless to discuss this with him any further.
This whole silly conversation came about because I defended Bramble against some of Bobster's silly attacks.
Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
I piped up saying I did not believe this, as I knew that Bobster regularly misrepresented people's beliefs, and twisted their words, and I knew enough of Bramble's views to conclude that more likely she was quite against violence against any animal, including human animals. So I challenged Bobster about this, not accepting his claims about Bramble.
Bramble indeed explained that (to her knowledge) the ALF do not support violent action. {Probably Bobster has confused them with more militant groups.}
In a nutshell, during the ensuing conversation between Bobster and I, Bobster (using the flimsiest of logic) then concluded that as I was defending Bramble against his utter nonsense, I was therefore a supporter of the ALF and therefore also a supporter of their alledged (by him) violent methods.
I do not actively support the ALF and know little of them. I know enough about them however to support their goals. I have already explained in other posts/threads that I do not support violent methods by animal activists. First because I do not wish to see humans harmed and secondly because these methods seem likely to backfire anyway.
Therefore, do not believe anything the Bobster says about me. Anything he says is likely to be either a mischievous misrepresentation or outright lie. He does not accurately report our previous conversations, and he uses the faultiest of logic to extrapolate my alleged views and beliefs. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| Well said, BB. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF. |
Wrong. I said she supports terrorist organizations, and it is true. I've corrected you at least twice on this, so you cannot claim to be mistaken, only, perhaps, obtuse.
But you are not committing an accident, and you are not stupid - you are doing exactly what you accuse ME of, which is misrepresenting statements by others.
| Quote: |
| I piped up saying I did not believe this, as I knew that Bobster regularly misrepresented people's beliefs, and twisted their words, and I knew enough of Bramble's views to conclude that more likely she was quite against violence against any animal, including human animals. |
You "know" THIS, but you also claim to know little about the actions of groups for which you have expressed approval. Just what is the process whereat you arrive at the things you "know" and, conversely, "know little of" ... whatever process it is you use, it seems a very convenient one.
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| So I challenged Bobster about this, not accepting his claims about Bramble. |
Bramble has had many opportunities to clearly state that she does not support the violence committed by ALF, that she vehemently opposes those actions as any self-consistent vegetarian and humane peron ought to do easily. She has never taken this opportunity, and at most she has simply and only said that there is debate and discussion among the AR community.
What is there to debate and discuss about setting off bombs, sending letters cointaining razor blades and making threatenting phone calls to family members of lab workers n the middle of the night?
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| Bramble indeed explained that (to her knowledge) the ALF do not support violent action. {Probably Bobster has confused them with more militant groups.} |
It is you who are confused and you have said several times now that you don't know what you are talking about. I provided links and quotations, over half of them from ALF's own website, because you seemed to need the education. It wasn't difficult. Everything I gave you was from the first 5 links after googling <Animal Liberation Front Criminal Activities>
ALF, and it's sibling group, ELF ARE militant groups. What do YOU call people who set off bombs and then run and hide? Admirable citizens worthy of emulation?
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| I do not actively support the ALF and know little of them. I know enough about them however to support their goals. I have already explained in other posts/threads that I do not support violent methods by animal activists. First because I do not wish to see humans harmed and secondly because these methods seem likely to backfire anyway. |
You forgot the part about respecting the democratic process and the importance of affecting social change through persuasion, legal disputation and reasoined debate, and thatr nonviolent action is better simply because that's how civilization works best.
Oh, you DIDN'T forget?
Come to think of it, you have yet to denounce the criminal and violent activities of these terror groups, also. Instead, despite the copious evidence I show you, you simply deny that they are violent.
Why not clear the air on this subject once and for all? You and Bramble both can tell us all clearly and in so many words that you believe people who commit violent crimes should go to jail in order to protect the rest of society from the harm they cause. Not sure why that's so hard for you to say out loud ...
If Al Queda was wrong to crash airplanes, is Rod Coronado a hero for exploding medical research labs? Their methods are the same, the difference is only one of degree.
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| He does not accurately report our previous conversations, and he uses the faultiest of logic to extrapolate my alleged views and beliefs. |
You have said in this very post that you support the goals that ALF. We know that their goal is direct violent action in order to change political and social behavior - their own "Credo," which I quoted above, with link, says exactly this.
So, where am I being inaccurate? You've given no example, yet you do call me a liar ... or am I treading into realms of which you "know little of"?
You have spoken in support of criminal terrorist organizations - you do so here, right in front of us - and then you call me a liar. It's all very amusing, really.
Next time, do the research instead of bragging about your ignorance, even after I showed you where and how to find out. Know what you are talking about instead of merely accusing people lying who did no such thing.
And after you DO figure out exactly what it is you don't know, I hope you have a very nice day.
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| A mischievous bump |
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D.D.
Joined: 29 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: rude |
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| Many young people are rude while travelling because they drink a lot. Have you ever seen Aussies living in Whistler or backpacking Brits in Australia. I am Canadian and I have lived abroad for many years. My fellow country people do embarrass me sometimes. Canadians do have a smugness about them. Americans can be cool but many of them seam to suffer from arrogance. America is just another country and is not better or worse than others. It's just different. Canada is also not the best country and many people there are passive aggresive. I am sorry for some of the actions of the Canadians here but give them a break. Most of them are just out of university and this is the first place they have ever travelled to. Some of them are just wankers. Every country has cool people and every country has wankers. It's too bad that the wankers usually outnumber the cool people. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: rude |
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| D.D. wrote: |
| Canada is also not the best country and many people there are passive aggresive. |
Sure "seams" that way, doesn't it? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
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I find Bobster's accusation to be plausible if Bramble is the incarnation of Red Dog. Red Dog was all for blowing up cars to make a political point.
If Bramble isn't RD, forget I said anything and try to get the Bobster vs Big Bird love fest going again. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
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I find Bobster's accusation to be plausible if Bramble is the incarnation of Red Dog. Red Dog was all for blowing up cars to make a political point.
If Bramble isn't RD, forget I said anything and try to get the Bobster vs Big Bird love fest going again. |
Yeah, she used to be red dog. And Bramble more recently authored this thread in order to assert that arson is not a serious crime and that burning houses to the ground in the dead of night constitutes a viable form of political dialogue in democratic societies.
Pretty sure that's what she's saying. That thread's about the ELF, but a lot of the same activists can be found in both groups.
In case Big_Bird drops by and makes some noises about having sympathy with their goals but not their methods, please be aware: for these groups, the goals and methods are inseparable and as I quoted on the previous page, in their own website they compare themselves to Al Queda. I'll republish here, if you don't mind.
From a website purporting to represent ALF :
The ALF credo
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) carries out direct action against animal abuse in the form of rescuing animals and causing financial loss to animal exploiters, usually through the damage and destruction of property.
Their aims are not simply to save the cute puppies and adorable bunny rabbits - as they say themselves above, their aim is to use "direct action" (i.e., violence) in pursuit of these desires. If you want to help animals but you don't like how ALF/ELF operate, there are other groups like the Humane Society and the WWF that work within the law and do not get their rocks off by setting fire to things.
Elsewhere, on the same site :
The U.S. hailed Osama bin Laden and his comrades as freedom fighters in the 1980s, while many government officials denounced Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. The Western world reviled the 9/11 attacks as a paradigm of evil, but Al Qaeda and other enemies of the U.S. up | | |
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