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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Well..
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| Maimonides is the preeminent medieval Jewish philosopher. One of the central tenets of his philosophy is that it is impossible for the truths arrived at by human intellection to contradict those revealed by God...Thomas Aquinas held him in high esteem. |
c.f.wikipedia.
Since Maimonides would certainly have considered the old testament books to be god�s revelation then it certainly seems he would. It also looks as though Aquinas would have gone along with him. |
All you've uncovered is that Maimonides and Aquinas accept the Bible to be the revelation of God's word. That should be obvious. What you're saying is that they can only interpret the Bible in one way: a boiler-plate literalist way. This isn't about a problem of revelation. The book is a revealed work,{EDIT} at least as far as Maimonides and Aquinas are concerned{/EDIT}. But if you've ever had any exposure to literature on more than a superficial level, which I have to assume you have, you'll know that words and stories are subject to heavy scholarship and sophisticated interpretation. Again, the selection you've quoted goes nothing to the questions of interpretation and literalism.
For example,
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Kuros wrote:
But more important is the effect of Christ's crucifixtion and resurrection on how Christians view death. Exile no longer threatens Christians as death because Christianity is universal unlike Judaism.
Universal�except for in huge areas in the world where Christianity does not hold sway, China, the Middle East� |
See, here I used a single word, universal. You ascribed a strictly geographic meaning to it, as if I meant to speak of the scope and penetration of Christianity worldwide. But I meant the word in a somewhat different sense. Christianity is universal because it is open to all, regardless of nationality or bloodline. One cannot say the same of Judaism, even though recently Judaism has become more open to converts. Christianity transcends bloodline and national borders, therefore it is universal. Many religions are not universal, although the success and proliferation of universal religions (such as Buddhism and arguably Islam) over the years obscures just how remarkable Christianity at its birth. Take for example Shintoism, which was a state religion, and still remains important, but only in Japan. Although faiths are rarely strictly nationalistic, the Norse, Greek, and even Egyptian gods intermingled and were worshipped outside their geographic area, none of these faiths are as predicated upon universality at their core as is Christianity.
Last edited by Kuros on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, in part, Kuros.
Christianity, owing to Christ's polemical move to open the religion to all, is universal in the sense you mean. Historically, this opened up certain lines of thought that lead to inclusive philosophies and political freedoms. But these were only historical preparations for ideals that would transcend the religion itself.
But there is another meaning to the word. It means not only universally open, but also universally true. When Christians claim Christ as the one and only way to ascend to heaven, they claim a kind of cosmic monopoly on the subject. The so-called universality, then, negates the other religions.
Even RTeacher's. Sorry, RTeacher, but I've gotta side with Jesus on this one. Krishna is a punk. 
So, the catholic (both the church so named and the general meaning of christianity) religion have an implied universal authority over all souls.
Even RTeacher's. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote
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| See, here I used a single word, universal. You ascribed a strictly geographic meaning to it, as if I meant to speak of the scope and penetration of Christianity worldwide. But I meant the word in a somewhat different sense. |
I think the problem is that you mean all your words in a different sense. 'Death' for you means 'exile' and 'exile' in turn can mean 'military occupation by a foreign force', 'desertion' and 'feelings of abandoment'. You try to stretch the meanings of words so far that in the end they lose all meaning. This of course is very convenient for you in that you can always claim that your argument has not been refuted by saying that what you said is not actually what you meant (I defy you to find any dictionary that assigns the meanings to 'death' and 'exile' that you have ascribed to them...but there again no doubt you find dictionaries to be too
literal and anti-intellectual).
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| Exile no longer threatens Christians as death because Christianity is universal unlike Judaism. |
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| Christianity is universal because it is open to all, regardless of nationality or bloodline. |
So yet again your meaning of 'exile' must have changed because it makes no sense to say that christians are no longer threatened by (1)occupation by a foreign military power (2) desertion (3) feelings of abandonment simply because membership of the christian church is open to all.
That is unless I am interpreting any of the words
a) Exile
b) No longer
c) Threatens
d) Christians
e) Death
f) Christianity
g) Universal
h) Unlike
i) Judaism
according to their dictionary definition instead of by a particular idiosyncratic meaning you have chosen to impute to them.
Who knows?
However for all your obfuscation there is no getting away from the fact that the central idea of christianity is that mankind somehow sinned against god and that consequence of that was human suffering.
However thanks to science we know that the main causes of human suffering disease, death and natural disasters all existed long before the advent of man on Earth. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| See, here I used a single word, universal. You ascribed a strictly geographic meaning to it, as if I meant to speak of the scope and penetration of Christianity worldwide. But I meant the word in a somewhat different sense. |
I think the problem is that you mean all your words in a different sense. 'Death' for you means 'exile' and 'exile' in turn can mean 'military occupation by a foreign force', 'desertion' and 'feelings of abandoment'. You try to stretch the meanings of words so far that in the end they lose all meaning. This of course is very convenient for you in that you can always claim that your argument has not been refuted by saying that what you said is not actually what you meant (I defy you to find any dictionary that assigns the meanings to 'death' and 'exile' that you have ascribed to them...but there again no doubt you find dictionaries to be too
literal and anti-intellectual). |
Well, in most old literature you find a good mix of literal and non-literal terms. OE had a lot of this for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning
Gilgamesh was .67 god and .33 human, the bull he and Enkidu wrestled apparently represented mankind's struggle against famine, etc. etc. Since there's no religion related to the epic anymore, even non-religious people have no problem in interpreting the symbolism there (because there's no threat from it anymore I assume), but books from existing religions get interpreted literally and simplistically. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Upon further analysis, the verse so commonly used to support Christian exclusivity doesn't hold much holy water ...
The following is an excerpt from East West dialogues, a collection of conversations between Reverend Alvin Van Pelt Hart, a noted Christian theologian and ordained Episcopal Priest and Satyaraja Dasa (Steven Rosen) an American devotee of Krishna. Satyaraja Dasa is an initiated disciple of His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Parbhupada, Founder-acarya (Spiritual Master) of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
Satyaraja Dasa: I have a question for you. Generally, nowadays, Christians feel that there is no need for a spiritual master. I think this is largely attributable to the fact that Christians feel that Jesus is the only guru. You know, Christian exclusivity. Jesus is the only way...
Rev.Hart: Yes, I see your point. I would have to say that this is a very narrow-minded conception. Certainly it is not representative of true Christianity. This type of �Christian exclusivity�, as you call it, is of course based on the book of John (14.6),where Jesus says, � I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me."
Satyaraja Dasa: That's it. That�s the one they always quote. Only through Jesus, they say. We do not need any living spiritual master.
Rev.Hart: Yes. This is an unfortunate interpretation --- one that is quite prominent, however.Anyway, the Original Greek has a different story to tell. ego eimi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa;oudeis erketai pros ton patera ei ma di emou.
Satyaraja Dasa: Can you translate?
Rev. Hart: Well,I've already quoted the verse, but the key word here is erketai.This is an extremely present-tense form of the verb. In other words, a more accurate translation would be as follows: �I am the way, the truth and the life. No man can presently come to the Father, except through me.� You see? In Palestine, two thousand years ago, Jesus was the guru. If he wanted to say that he would be the teacher for all time, he would have used a word other than erketai,but he didn't.
In one sense, of course, I can empathize with my fellow Christians. I have also accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.But objectively, there is no reason to say that he is the only one, although many do say such a thing. (Steven Rosen, East-West Dialogues, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1989, p.54)
Reverend Hart is again quoted in a comprehensive article wherein noted scholars and theologians highlight points of similarity between Christianity and the Gaudiya Vaisnava faith of the Krishna Consciousness movement:
... Some Christians see Jesus as the only way to God. However, the Reverend Alvin Hart says that John 14:6 is often mistranslated. The original Greek�ego emi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erkatai pros ton patera ei ma di emou�should read "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and none of you are coming to the Father except through me."
According to Reverend Hart, "...the key word here is erketai. This is an extremely present-tense form of the verb...You see? In Palestine, two thousand years ago, Jesus was the guru. If he wanted to say that he would be the teacher for all time, he would have used a word other than erkatai, but he didn't."
Dr. Boyd Daniels of the American Bible Society concurs: "Oh, yes. The word erketai is definitely the present tense form of the verb. Jesus was speaking to his contemporaries."
http://namahatta.org/blogs/index.php/2008/04/07/points_of_similarity?blog=24
The above link also features a neat Hieronymus Bosch painting of Hell: |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Upon further analysis, the verse so commonly used to support Christian exclusivity doesn't hold much holy water ...
The following is an excerpt from East West dialogues, a collection of conversations between Reverend Alvin Van Pelt Hart, a noted Christian theologian and ordained Episcopal Priest and Satyaraja Dasa (Steven Rosen) an American devotee of Krishna. Satyaraja Dasa is an initiated disciple of His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Parbhupada, Founder-acarya (Spiritual Master) of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
Satyaraja Dasa: I have a question for you. Generally, nowadays, Christians feel that there is no need for a spiritual master. I think this is largely attributable to the fact that Christians feel that Jesus is the only guru. You know, Christian exclusivity. Jesus is the only way...
Rev.Hart: Yes, I see your point. I would have to say that this is a very narrow-minded conception. Certainly it is not representative of true Christianity. This type of �Christian exclusivity�, as you call it, is of course based on the book of John (14.6),where Jesus says, � I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me."
Satyaraja Dasa: That's it. That�s the one they always quote. Only through Jesus, they say. We do not need any living spiritual master.
Rev.Hart: Yes. This is an unfortunate interpretation --- one that is quite prominent, however.Anyway, the Original Greek has a different story to tell. ego eimi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa;oudeis erketai pros ton patera ei ma di emou.
Satyaraja Dasa: Can you translate?
Rev. Hart: Well,I've already quoted the verse, but the key word here is erketai.This is an extremely present-tense form of the verb. In other words, a more accurate translation would be as follows: �I am the way, the truth and the life. No man can presently come to the Father, except through me.� You see? In Palestine, two thousand years ago, Jesus was the guru. If he wanted to say that he would be the teacher for all time, he would have used a word other than erketai,but he didn't.
In one sense, of course, I can empathize with my fellow Christians. I have also accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.But objectively, there is no reason to say that he is the only one, although many do say such a thing. (Steven Rosen, East-West Dialogues, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1989, p.54)
Reverend Hart is again quoted in a comprehensive article wherein noted scholars and theologians highlight points of similarity between Christianity and the Gaudiya Vaisnava faith of the Krishna Consciousness movement:
... Some Christians see Jesus as the only way to God. However, the Reverend Alvin Hart says that John 14:6 is often mistranslated. The original Greek�ego emi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erkatai pros ton patera ei ma di emou�should read "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and none of you are coming to the Father except through me."
According to Reverend Hart, "...the key word here is erketai. This is an extremely present-tense form of the verb...You see? In Palestine, two thousand years ago, Jesus was the guru. If he wanted to say that he would be the teacher for all time, he would have used a word other than erkatai, but he didn't."
Dr. Boyd Daniels of the American Bible Society concurs: "Oh, yes. The word erketai is definitely the present tense form of the verb. Jesus was speaking to his contemporaries."
http://namahatta.org/blogs/index.php/2008/04/07/points_of_similarity?blog=24
The above link also features a neat Hieronymus Bosch painting of Hell: |
Yeah, but the old boy spoke Aramaic, not Greek. Who knows what the translations should be? |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| See, here I used a single word, universal. You ascribed a strictly geographic meaning to it, as if I meant to speak of the scope and penetration of Christianity worldwide. But I meant the word in a somewhat different sense. |
I think the problem is that you mean all your words in a different sense. 'Death' for you means 'exile' and 'exile' in turn can mean 'military occupation by a foreign force', 'desertion' and 'feelings of abandoment'. You try to stretch the meanings of words so far that in the end they lose all meaning. This of course is very convenient for you in that you can always claim that your argument has not been refuted by saying that what you said is not actually what you meant (I defy you to find any dictionary that assigns the meanings to 'death' and 'exile' that you have ascribed to them...but there again no doubt you find dictionaries to be too
literal and anti-intellectual). |
Well, in most old literature you find a good mix of literal and non-literal terms. OE had a lot of this for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenning
Gilgamesh was .67 god and .33 human, the bull he and Enkidu wrestled apparently represented mankind's struggle against famine, etc. etc. Since there's no religion related to the epic anymore, even non-religious people have no problem in interpreting the symbolism there (because there's no threat from it anymore I assume), but books from existing religions get interpreted literally and simplistically. |
At least let him play fair. If Kuros is using an established system of word substitution he should identify which one it is. Do you know? More to the point, if you had been asked to define 'exile' would you have given the meanings 'military occupation by a foreign force', 'desertion' and 'feelings of abandonment'? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think that fanaticism and arrogance on the part of so-called Christians (deviated from the spirit of the original faith taught by Jesus) largely contributed to the attempted genocide and unfair exploitation of Native American Indians, who had a superior culture in terms of their living harmoniously with nature - and the "Great Spirit".
www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-08/editorials3062.htm
Here's a vintage CBS documentary (1966) on the first Hare Krishna center (in New York's East Village) titled "Happiness on 2nd Avenue" ...
www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Happiness_on_2nd_Avenue.html |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| See, here I used a single word, universal. You ascribed a strictly geographic meaning to it, as if I meant to speak of the scope and penetration of Christianity worldwide. But I meant the word in a somewhat different sense. |
I think the problem is that you mean all your words in a different sense. 'Death' for you means 'exile' and 'exile' in turn can mean 'military occupation by a foreign force', 'desertion' and 'feelings of abandoment'. You try to stretch the meanings of words so far that in the end they lose all meaning. This of course is very convenient for you in that you can always claim that your argument has not been refuted by saying that what you said is not actually what you meant (I defy you to find any dictionary that assigns the meanings to 'death' and 'exile' that you have ascribed to them...but there again no doubt you find dictionaries to be too
literal and anti-intellectual).
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| Exile no longer threatens Christians as death because Christianity is universal unlike Judaism. |
Kuros wrote
| Quote: |
| Christianity is universal because it is open to all, regardless of nationality or bloodline. |
So yet again your meaning of 'exile' must have changed because it makes no sense to say that christians are no longer threatened by (1)occupation by a foreign military power (2) desertion (3) feelings of abandonment simply because membership of the christian church is open to all.
That is unless I am interpreting any of the words
a) Exile
b) No longer
c) Threatens
d) Christians
e) Death
f) Christianity
g) Universal
h) Unlike
i) Judaism
according to their dictionary definition instead of by a particular idiosyncratic meaning you have chosen to impute to them.
Who knows?
However for all your obfuscation there is no getting away from the fact that the central idea of christianity is that mankind somehow sinned against god and that consequence of that was human suffering.
However thanks to science we know that the main causes of human suffering disease, death and natural disasters all existed long before the advent of man on Earth. |
Yeah. I understand. You like things cut and dry.
Oh, and you're completely unwilling to appreciate Christianity on any level. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you, I'm curious, appreciate atheism on any level? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Omkara wrote: |
| Do you, I'm curious, appreciate atheism on any level? |
Sure I do. Nietzsche is one of my most favorite authors ever. |
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Stevie_B
Joined: 14 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Omkara wrote: |
| Do you, I'm curious, appreciate atheism on any level? |
Sure I do. Nietzsche is one of my most favorite authors ever. |
Why? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Stevie_B wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Omkara wrote: |
| Do you, I'm curious, appreciate atheism on any level? |
Sure I do. Nietzsche is one of my most favorite authors ever. |
Why? |
Why? It goes beyond his attack on Christianity. He posits his own positive system of values, although much of it really is a revival of Aristotle, while meanwhile openly confessing that the nature of valuations and truth is complex and less than objective, if not entirely subjective, either. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros wrote
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| Yeah. I understand. You like things cut and dry. |
I guess it's the scientist in me.
Kuros wrote
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| Oh, and you're completely unwilling to appreciate Christianity on any level. |
Not true. I certainly appreciate the humanist elements in it. Also in a lot of cases I'd agree with what Ghandi said.
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| I like your Christ. I do not like your christians, they are nothing like your Christ. |
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Omkara
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA
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