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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: Conservatives, and Their Lies ... About Barack Obama |
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I could probably find one of these to discuss for every day of the week.
From Yahoo:
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| The Americans for Legal Immigration PAC said in a statement, "Barack Obama has stepped on a political land mine by stating Americans should be forced to learn to speak Spanish." But that's not what Obama said. |
The question was about proposals for "English only" legislation, and the response was too restrained in my book. Instead of pointing out the inherent biases in such movements, the candidate instead pointed out that what we really need is that every American be educated to be bilingual, whereas at the moment it's generally children of immigrants who most often are.
His actual response?
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| "I agree that immigrants should learn English," Obama said. "But instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English � they'll learn English � you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish. You should be thinking about how can your child become bilingual. We should have every child speaking more than one language." |
One of the largest problems education has faced in America is a resistance many parents feel to the idea of seeing their children grow up to know more than they do. Ouch, that sounds like an anti-American thing to say - I claim allowance because I love my country, so suck on that - but I wonder how many people who favor these kinds of legislation understand that they are really reacting from fear, a fear of the future, and a fear of things being taken away from them?
But let's watch the fun as the conservative pundits spin this to make it look like maybe Barack loves some people more because they are not WASPs ... |
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IMF crisis
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| Hmm. This thread got smaller. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Its true, the conservatives have mischaracterized Obama.
But that doesn't change the fact that Obama is condescending and preachy as all hell.
Here's what Obama said:
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| But instead of worrying about whether immigrants can learn English � they'll learn English � you need to make sure your child can speak Spanish. You should be thinking about how can your child become bilingual. We should have every child speaking more than one language. |
Here's what a less preachy politician would have said:
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| As a country, we could be doing better at learning other languages, particularly Spanish. America's competitiveness is at stake. As President, I will support X to assure that more of our children become bilingual. But ultimately, the government can only do so much, and the effort begins at home. We should have every child speaking more than one language. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes the New Yorker Magaizine is such a conservative rag. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Being preachy doesn't make you wrong, it just means you need to work better at being slick. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Being preachy doesn't make you wrong, it just means you need to work better at being slick. |
It doesn't necessarily make the ideas themselves wrong, no. I actually like Obama on most issues. Perhaps the tone is just wrong.
Or perhaps Obama would like to have a more expansive relationship with the American people than Presidents of the past have had. In other words, the tone is indicative of greater expectations. And don't get me wrong, I do not have a problem with Obama simply having greater expectations, but I do have a problem with Obama recommending particular courses of action generally to the American people.
But we shall see. Maybe the tone is just wrong, and that is it. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think a lot of people display cognitive dissonance on this issue, depending on how it's presented. In some situations someone says the world is globalizing fast and kids need to be bilingual to be competitive and the phone rings off the hook in the local schools demanding more foreign language programs. In other situations someone starts griping about the clerk at 7-11 speaking Spanish and the same people get in a tizzy about the furriners taking over.
Obama is new on the national stage. He's a very bright man and I predict that in a year or two he will be giving much slicker answers and his enemies will be calling him Slick Willy the Second. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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The latest lie is regarding the trip to Europe last week, though this is a garden-variety political campaign sort of lie, not so much one tied to conservative ideology except insofar as it feeds the mythos that liberals dislike and just barely tolerate the idea of having a military.
In essence, it's one of those damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't things: if Barack Obama had decided to visit the troops at Ramstein AB he would have been accused of using them cynically for personal political advantage - and apparently, this is exactly why he decided not to do so, because the military has rules about politicians doing that kind of thing (and also maybe because it's disrespectful to the uniformed soldiers).
Now, however, the McCain campaign is saying that he canceled plans to go there BECAUSE he could not use the visit politically. My dad would have said they got him going and they got him on the way back as well ...
From today's Washington Post:
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The essence of McCain's allegation is that Obama planned to take a media entourage, including television cameras, to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany during his week-long foreign trip, and that he canceled the visit when he learned he could not do so. "I know that, according to reports, that he wanted to bring media people and cameras and his campaign staffers," McCain said Monday night on CNN's "Larry King Live."
The Obama campaign has denied that was the reason he called off the visit. In fact, there is no evidence that he planned to take anyone to the American hospital other than a military adviser, whose status as a campaign staff member sparked last-minute concern among Pentagon officials that the visit would be an improper political event. |
It doesn't matter that it isn't true, and that there's no evidence to suggest it might be - just say it loud enough, often enough, it becomes so. And the McCain campain seems bent on this course precisely.
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McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said again yesterday that the Republican's version of events is correct, and that Obama canceled the visit because he was not allowed to take reporters and cameras into the hospital.
"It is safe to say that, according to press reports, Barack Obama avoided, skipped, canceled the visit because of those reasons," he said. "We're not making a leap here."
Asked repeatedly for the "reports," Bounds provided three examples, none of which alleged that Obama had wanted to take members of the media to the hospital. |
The ost disappointing thing of all? McCain himself has said repeatdly that he would not try to denigrate his opponent's patriotism ... but now it IS McCain, not just his surrogates, who is doing this very thing. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: ... |
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| I think a lot of people display cognitive dissonance on this issue |
Perhaps it's my own cognitive dissonance and I'm being arrogant, but I don't recall anyone ever using the term cognitive dissonance on this board until I brought it up a month or so ago.
I've since seen it bandied about by at last 3 different posters.
It's true. It's everywhere. I could roll into just about any thread on any forum here and say, "Hey, CD in da house!"
It's a fancy way of saying bias. Not really a helpful term or debate.
Disclaimer: I used it in a discussion of selective memory, not as a means of psychoanalysis.
RE: Lies about Obama
Get used to it. Gonna be a recurring theme as payback for criticism of Bush.
But no worries. Payback is not a one-way street, and we've learned a lot over the past 8 years.
Discussions from this point on should go like this:
You're not against X, you just hate Obama.
Bottom line: Psychoanalysis is a lame form of debate. Some will cling to it until doomsday.  |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| But that doesn't change the fact that Obama is condescending and preachy as all hell. |
I don't see that in him, but maybe I'm displaying cognitive dissonance.
I have heard some people use 'arrogant'...which I don't see. But it's generally from Bush supporters, which I always found strange. Obama to them is arrogant, but Bush isn't/wasn't?
Then you got McCain, who sounds whiney and has a weird laugh. I was listening to him recently blast Obama for going to Europe with his whiney whimpering voice. I can't even imagine him in the international arena if he were to become President. I can almost hear a whiney wimpy voice speaking out about how it wasn't right for so-and-so to do such-and-such.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3aMDJP4VxY4&feature=related is kinda funny. McCain thick-filled with LIPSTICK on with his whining voice. Interesting to see FOX NEWS discussing his poor-speaking skills. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: ... |
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Yer, "make sure your children can speak Spanish" was a mis-step, but I'm not sure what bits are condescending. Maybe the Pennsylvania stuff?
That's a little too little to hang on.
I actually can't think of a Republican I'd be more kosher with than McCain. I don't see any reason to belittle him. He's policied himself enough into Bush stoogemanship that he doesn't deserve election unless you want more of the same.
Foreign policy experience? He's been backing Bush.
But notice the media question is "Who would be the best Commander-in-Chief?"
Commander-in-Chief isn't about foreign policy. It's about the armed forces.
That's slanted.
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maybe I'm displaying cognitive dissonance |
Damn. There it is again. |
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