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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: New & Improved Saudi Textbooks |
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I don't hate Muslims, per se. I hate radical Islam's influence to the same extent that I hate radical Christianity's infuence. My hatred is catholic, encompassing all vilely repressive and hateful doctrines, wherever they occur.
I fear radical Christianity less because there is currently no government with any global power that is in complete thrall to its doctrines. The same cannot be said of radical Islam, if this article is to be believed.
In short, I'm not convinced that there's nothing to the concept of the global clash of civilizations, and it's articles like this that make me think I'm not just whistling Dixie.
http://www.slate.com/id/2195684/
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Here, for example, is a multiple-choice question that appears in a recent edition of a Saudi fourth-grade textbook, Monotheism and Jurisprudence, in a section that attempts to teach children to distinguish "true" from "false" belief in god:
Q. Is belief true in the following instances:
a) A man prays but hates those who are virtuous.
b) A man professes that there is no deity other than God but loves the unbelievers.
c) A man worships God alone, loves the believers, and hates the unbelievers.
The correct answer, of course, is c). According to the Wahhabi imams who wrote this textbook, it isn't enough just to worship god or just to love other believers�it is important to hate unbelievers as well. |
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| These passages, it should be noted, are from new, "revised" Saudi textbooks. |
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| Normally, the contents of another country's textbooks would be of no interest to us. Indeed, I've no doubt that there are plenty of U.S. textbooks that contain insane, incorrect, or otherwise unacceptable information. Saudi school textbooks are a special case, however. They are written and produced by the Saudi government and subsequently distributed, free of cost, to Saudi-sponsored schools as far afield as Lagos, Nigeria, and Buenos Aires, Argentina. |
In spite of this, because our oil companies have deep contracts with the Saudi Arabian government, ABC, NBC, CNN, et al, not even the zombies at FOX will mention this. Oil companies have piggybacked on the most pernicious elements of multi-culturalism in order to put critisizing any religious/cultural belief, no matter how inimicable to Western ideals of freedom of thought and expression, outside the pale of rational discussion, even when such beliefs are diametrically opposed to the longterm continuation of their own interests in unfettered, unregulated capitalism.
You are already hearing how Medieval Islamic doctrine should be sheltered from rational discourse. Peoples who have already fought through their own Medieval strictures are having to knuckle under to such beliefs, discriminating against their people in order to placate ideas they outgrew hundreds of years ago to escape the threat that radical religiononists might riot.
Something is terribly wrong with this picture. The Netherlands has the right idea - before citizenship is granted, one must prove a willingness to live in accordance with their culture's mores. If you are a Muslim who can, lovely. Welcome. If you cannot, please return whence you came. The West does not need you. The West, in fact, needs not to have you, depends on its very survival upon not having you, actually
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Well, I think such a text book is horribly wrong. It contradicts what the prophet Mohammed said in hadith regarding Christians which the Shiite cleric Fadllallah of Lebanon quoted and that is "Speak to them in the best way possible" and the them is referring to the people of the book. The Wahhabis were also people who back in the 1920s conducted raids against Shiites and Iraq, because they considered them heretics. It is unacceptable for the Saudi Arabian government to have that stuff in their books. I always for making sure immigrants have shown they are taking the local language and values of the country they are immigrating to seriously, and that educated people are favored. No one needs fanatics to immigrate. You don't want some coming over who won't bother to learn lots of English or accept women's rights etc...... I am also not a big fan of conforming schools to fit sikhs who want to wear knives to school. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Well, I think such a text book is horribly wrong. It contradicts what the prophet Mohammed said in hadith regarding Christians which the Shiite cleric Fadllallah of Lebanon quoted and that is "Speak to them in the best way possible" and the them is referring to the people of the book. |
Mohammed said plenty of things, including 'whoever changes his religion kill him', as well as making sure that the Koran was packed full of kuffar hatred. Do you think the Saudis just made these things up? They are orthodox Islamic teachings. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Wow Adventurer. Most people don't go so far into naked apologizing as do you. I'm impressed. However, I also know that you're essentially full of crap. I bet you read Karen Armstrong and Esposito but not the texts themselves. No, I KNOW you did.
It is simply not possible for a non-muslim to read the muslim texts and not walk away horrified at what they teach their kids. Once you have read them, the video or pictures of little kids memorizing the koran is freaky as you now know what they are memorizing.
The koran and hadiths are the two most hate-filled documents humanity has likely ever produced. And they have created hate-filled societies that violently consumed weaker and more peaceful cultures that they touched.
Have some values. Believe in something. If you can muster the testicular fortitude to hate hate/racism/sexism/violence/supremacism then you MUST be against islam. Not muslims, but islam. You can't be an honest man otherwise. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mises"]Wow Adventurer. Most people don't go so far into naked apologizing as do you. I'm impressed. However, I also know that you're essentially full of crap. I bet you read Karen Armstrong and Esposito but not the texts themselves. No, I KNOW you did.
[You cannot judge people the way you do and claim to take the high road. I used to do what you are doing. I am not an apologist. I, actually, read the Quran in Arabic and the hadiths in Arabic. I don't like many of the hadiths, and if I do read something spiritual it's the Bible which I read in English, French, and Arabic or Buddhist and Hindu stuff, and the work of Sufi Muslims. It also all depends on how you interpret things.
Big Verne said Mohammed said to kill those who left the faith.
That's in a hadith. It's disputed by some. There is a problem with its existence as a hadith. However, that's not what I was referring to.
We were referring to the Saudis stating in a book that you should hate
Christians. I did state before that the Quran does state to show respect toward monks and priests. Monks and priests are Christians. Now, it does condemn the Trinity and says Christians risk damnation.
Nowhere does it say to persecute or hate Christians. As far as sexism,
you can argue that exists, but can't you make the argument about
Christianity and Judaism if they are interepreted a certain way?
I am not a defender of Islam. I am against sectarianism and misinterpreting history by using sectarian colors. I view that as a form of radicalism which causes more in the world. You assume I read Karen
Armstrong. I never did. I read the Quran in Arabic and did the hadiths.
I can also quote you a hadith that I find very offensive, and I hope the Turks purge it in Turkey. They are looking at what hadiths are problematic. Are you wanting us to launch some major war with Muslims and have men all sides killed? Because, you're attitude is where it would take us. You want to throw the baby out with the bath water, and you seem to see all the people as monolithic. Notice, the article only said
Saudi Arabia has such a text. Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi country, but you decided to ommit that, and then you want to question my honesty?
I look at things in a balanced way as I am interested in historical accuracy, balance, not sectarianism. Before you talk about hatred, maybe you should look at your sectarianism? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| You want to throw the baby out with the bath water, and you seem to see all the people as monolithic. |
A book isn't people. The book influences people.
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Notice, the article only said Saudi Arabia has such a text. Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi country, but you decided to ommit that, and then you want to question my honesty? |
Actually, those Saudi texts show up in almost every country on earth. Big story out of Russia on that today. Also Virginia and Calgary. And Pakistan, India, Europe.
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| Are you wanting us to launch some major war with Muslims and have men all sides killed? |
No. I want 100% of muslim immigration to Canada to stop. All of it. In addition I want the incessant apologizing for islam to stop. I want the label of islamophobe to stop. We are in, like it or not, a civilizational conflict. It isn't new, but a continuation of an existing conflict. The era of Arab nationalism, and otherwise secular nationalism in muslim states is over. Time to stop dreaming and get back to reality.
I was against the war in Afghanistan and Iraq because fixing them isn't for us. Like the Marxists used to say, their societies need to collapse under the weight of their own contradictions. Only when they totally collapse, from their own doing, will meaningful reform happen.
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| Because, you're attitude is where it would take us. |
No. Pretending that all is ok will take us into conflict. But they will be civil conflicts and separatist in nature, like in Thailand. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| You want to throw the baby out with the bath water, and you seem to see all the people as monolithic. |
A book isn't people. The book influences people.
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Notice, the article only said Saudi Arabia has such a text. Saudi Arabia is a Wahhabi country, but you decided to ommit that, and then you want to question my honesty? |
Actually, those Saudi texts show up in almost every country on earth. Big story out of Russia on that today. Also Virginia and Calgary. And Pakistan, India, Europe.
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| Are you wanting us to launch some major war with Muslims and have men all sides killed? |
No. I want 100% of muslim immigration to Canada to stop. All of it. In addition I want the incessant apologizing for islam to stop. I want the label of islamophobe to stop. We are in, like it or not, a civilizational conflict. It isn't new, but a continuation of an existing conflict. The era of Arab nationalism, and otherwise secular nationalism in muslim states is over. Time to stop dreaming and get back to reality.
I was against the war in Afghanistan and Iraq because fixing them isn't for us. Like the Marxists used to say, their societies need to collapse under the weight of their own contradictions. Only when they totally collapse, from their own doing, will meaningful reform happen.
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| Because, you're attitude is where it would take us. |
No. Pretending that all is ok will take us into conflict. But they will be civil conflicts and separatist in nature, like in Thailand. |
So, you admit you are a sectarian person, and you want to basically draw us into some war. This is not a mature proposition. It's thinking I had maybe a decade ago. It's extreme, but you, of course, think it is an enlightened perspective, and I understand that.
The conflict between East and West is not that simple since we have to factor in colonialism and the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Arab-Israeli conflict is part of the residue of colonialism and the continuation of World War II.
Yes, those Saudi Arabian books spread. However, you and the other fellow keep throwing wrenches in things and changing and shifting.
When I say Jordan and Syria and many other Arab states don't use those wahhabi texts, you shrug it off, because it doesn't fit your campaign.
They don't.
When someone brought up the British teacher being idiotic and making Christians go through some Muslim prayers, it was ignored that Syria and Jordan only makes Christians take Christian tests. They can't opt out of the religious tests and say they are atheists, but they take the tests of the sect they are born in over there. The same in Lebanon.
You are making things black and white. A book influences people, but so do interepretations of the said book. Is Karachi's Muslims the same as Amman's Muslims? No, definitely not. People are influenced by the Bible/Old Testament. Are Nigerian Christians and Canadian Christians just carbon copies of each other? There is a fight in the Anglican Church over interpretations. Your average Syrian Muslim is far more moderate than your Pakistani one.
As far as Arabism and its secular components, the United States and its Israeli allies instead of trying to deal with them as they were all secular encouraged the fanatical elements you are railing about, so the US and Israel helped create the mess. It is kind of like giving someone drugs and railing about how he's clumsy.
Arab nationalism is actually not so much over. It has transformed.
There are different Arab camps. It is more complicated than you think.
But you just view things in a simplified manner, because it doesn't require thinking that much. For example, Qatar intervened with its prince to help various factions in Lebanon. There was no religion involved. It was two Arab states working together.
That involves some Arab nationalism in the cooperative sense. Yemen is becoming part of the Gulf group and not having the old problems it had with Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia engaged Israel indirectly and has taken a national role it has not taken before. The Saudis are also allied to Christians in Lebanon. There was a mess after the collapse of the old nationalist camp and also the Soviet Union, but things are starting to move in a certain direction as of the past 7 years. There is a fight over identity in the region. There is an inner struggle in the area, and moderates in the US and Europe, unlike you, know that, and they don't lump everyone as the enemy, because we can't afford to. We don't want our cousins and relatives killed and theirs, because you want to slam the Quran.
Of course, in your black-and-white world where you think you know everything this doesn't happen. Also, many of the Sunni Lebanese who abandoned pan-Arabism of the old vain are for cooperation with other Arabs, but focusing on Lebanon rather than having Lebanon sacrificed for Pan-Arabism.
Maybe, you need to read some more about the area before you assume you know more than someone else. The world isn't so linear. What would slamming the Quran that Muslims who are moderate and fanatical alike revere? Does it really accomplish anything? Will it make them see the light? I never found that approach that you are using to work.
I've been there, done that. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| So, you admit you are a sectarian person, and you want to basically draw us into some war. |
I said exactly the opposite. You misread both my post and the muslim documents. 2 for 2.
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The conflict between East and West is not that simple since we have to factor in colonialism and the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Arab-Israeli conflict is part of the residue of colonialism and the continuation of World War II. |
And the muslim expansion into Europe? Gates of Vienna? Ummm, Turkey? haha. What else? Occupation of Spain? The Copts? Talk about Western self hate! 9/11? 7/7? The muslim rape wave in Scandinavia?
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Yes, those Saudi Arabian books spread. However, you and the other fellow keep throwing wrenches in things and changing and shifting.
When I say Jordan and Syria and many other Arab states don't use those wahhabi texts, you shrug it off, because it doesn't fit your campaign.
They don't. |
What campaign. Who cares if they are in Jordan and Syria? Why don't you pick two more inconsequential states as a basis? This thread is about Saudi books. And these books are found on every corner of the globe. Merely picking two random nations, and not providing any evidence for your claim that fully zero saudi books are used, is neither relevant or interesting.
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When someone brought up the British teacher being idiotic and making Christians go through some Muslim prayers, it was ignored that Syria and Jordan only makes Christians take Christian tests. They can't opt out of the religious tests and say they are atheists, but they take the tests of the sect they are born in over there. The same in Lebanon.
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So the don't cut off the heads of Christians. Should I send them a cookie? These are largely secular societies compared to Pakistan or Saudi. And they aren't a large source of immigration to Canada anymore. Pakistan is.
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You are making things black and white. A book influences people, but so do interepretations of the said book. Is Karachi's Muslims the same as Amman's Muslims? No, definitely not. People are influenced by the Bible/Old Testament. Are Nigerian Christians and Canadian Christians just carbon copies of each other? There is a fight in the Anglican Church over interpretations. Your average Syrian Muslim is far more moderate than your Pakistani one. |
And what? Who said they are the same? What is the purpose of this nonsense? You tried to make some weak-kneed and fully nutless defense of muslim theology and I called you out.
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As far as Arabism and its secular components, the United States and its Israeli allies instead of trying to deal with them as they were all secular encouraged the fanatical elements you are railing about, so the US and Israel helped create the mess. It is kind of like giving someone drugs and railing about how he's clumsy. |
Sure. More Slyer Virus. Anyways, because Amerikka caused muslims to behave as stricter muslims, Scarborough must become a muslim ghetto. Gotcha. I'll let the Copts know Israel is the cause of their decline.
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Arab nationalism is actually not so much over. It has transformed.
There are different Arab camps. It is more complicated than you think.
But you just view things in a simplified manner, because it doesn't require thinking that much. For example, Qatar intervened with its prince to help various factions in Lebanon. There was no religion involved. It was two Arab states working together.
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Because not every interaction between muslim states is explicitly done with a dance on the koran arab nationalism isn't dying? No.
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That involves some Arab nationalism in the cooperative sense. Yemen is becoming part of the Gulf group and not having the old problems it had with Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia engaged Israel indirectly and has taken a national role it has not taken before. The Saudis are also allied to Christians in Lebanon. There was a mess after the collapse of the old nationalist camp and also the Soviet Union, but things are starting to move in a certain direction as of the past 7 years. There is a fight over identity in the region. There is an inner struggle in the area, and moderates in the US and Europe, unlike you, know that, and they don't lump everyone as the enemy, because we can't afford to. We don't want our cousins and relatives killed and theirs, because you want to slam the Quran. |
What is the purpose of this? Who asked for this? If I want a guilt-ridden Westerner to give me some apologist story about the region I'll read Karen Armstrong. I. Don't. Care. They can interact with each other however the please. I. Don't. Care. This is neither my concern nor interest. I. Don't. Care. The various political arrangements between muslim states is not the topic of this thread. Saudi muslim intolerance is. Why do you keep ignoring all the intolerance in the region?
Anyways, If you're trying to make an argument that Arab nationalism is alive and well, or merely in some kind of (modern, liberal, I'm sure) transformation, you're on very thin ice. Arab nationalist governments will explode when the looming collapse of the Bretton Woods 2 system causes America to massively pull back military aid to Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, Kuwait et al. The whole system is maintained by joe taxpayer in Kentucky.
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Of course, in your black-and-white world where you think you know everything this doesn't happen. Also, many of the Sunni Lebanese who abandoned pan-Arabism of the old vain are for cooperation with other Arabs, but focusing on Lebanon rather than having Lebanon sacrificed for Pan-Arabism. |
What is the purpose of this? I don't care if Saudi gave Kuwait a hand job in Beirut. It is irrelevant to 1) Saudi is the most intolerant nation on earth 2) Saudi pollution is the leading source of muslim information in the west and 3) the muslim population, that is reading this Saudi garbage, is growing rapidly in the west and launching both violent and legal jihad. You know, the topic of this thread.
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Maybe, you need to read some more about the area before you assume you know more than someone else. The world isn't so linear. What would slamming the Quran that Muslims who are moderate and fanatical alike revere? Does it really accomplish anything? Will it make them see the light?:) I never found that approach that you are using to work.
I've been there, done that. |
I do not give two shits about the middle east. When I read that some mosque blew up and 40 people died I think "collapsing civilization" and turn the page. Just like I did today when I read that HIV is rapidly expanding in Pakistan cause they are too "conservative" to display or use condoms when men have sex with men. Turn the page, nothing new here. Or that polio is expanding because they think it a plot to render them sterile. Turn the page. Just like when I read about the UN trying to enforce sharia law against journalists. Turn the page. It is all part of a big carnival of crazy. I do not care. Every civilization will have a horrible low point that it must use as a way forward. We had ours. Several, in fact. China is just climbing out of hers. Russia is socially near bottom now. I'm not a wimpy, weak kneed hippie. The muslim world needs to be allowed to hit bottom.
What I do care about is the West not getting caught up in their search for bottom. Do you not get this? All this silly third-rate undergrad analysis is meaningless to the wider theme of us not being involved with them in any way that will drag us into the crap. A full end to muslim immigration is step #1 and completely irrelevant to Saudi-Yemen economic relations as it relates to exports of dates blah blah. You want to see the future of Europe? Remember that story from Greenland. You're right, Western attitudes will cause sectarian conflict. But not my attitudes.
What you suffer from is an arrogant Western disposition. You think that the poor and downtrodden muslim (who is only poor and downtrodden due to your genetic kin) will get "better" if only you, noble white dude, "understand" and "tolerate" him. No. It won't make any difference at all. They have their own path ahead of them, and it ain't pretty. Can't fight the forces of history. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I think its much too easy to just paint Saudi Arabia and these textbooks in just black/white or right/wrong. Please believe me, I am certainly no apologist but I did live there for three years and have a basic understanding (from my Saudi friends) of the internal struggle going on in that country.
My BASIC understanding is this: The Saud family rules because they placate the Wahhabi hardliners. Change in Saudi Arabia is achingly slow because any change is viewed as a threat to the extremists. If the ruling family were to move too far too fast, an overthrow would no doubt take place. I shudder to think what would replace the current ruling family if they were to be overthrown by the extremists. I believe the Saud family (most of them anyway) are relatively moderate in their views, but are smart enough to know that they need to keep the peace.
I, too, am terrified at the prospect of so many muslim immigrants going to the west. Look what is happening in the UK and other areas in Europe. Its only a matter of time before Canada, the US and other nations in the western hemisphere begin to feel the same pinch. The train wreck is coming and I'm afraid its going to make the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan look like child's play. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mises"]
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| So, you admit you are a sectarian person, and you want to basically draw us into some war. |
I said exactly the opposite. You misread both my post and the muslim documents. 2 for 2.
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Fine, but you are still engaging in sectarian talk when you are not seeking any balance. It is one group versus another with no sense of balance. That basically is the path of sectarianism whether one is Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish.
The conflict between East and West is not that simple since we have to factor in colonialism and the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Arab-Israeli conflict is part of the residue of colonialism and the continuation of World War II. |
And the muslim expansion into Europe? Gates of Vienna? Ummm, Turkey? haha. What else? Occupation of Spain? The Copts? Talk about Western self hate! 9/11? 7/7? The muslim rape wave in Scandinavia?
[You are mixing different time periods. The Turks were expanding before they were Muslims. You miss that in your attempt to launch a campaign of distorting history and human realities for sectarian purposes.
The Turks didn't go to Vienna in 2008. The situation with copts today is not in the same period as when the Turks ruled the Balkans. The Spanish launched their wars around that time in Latin American and forced Catholicism on everyone there.
Would it be fair to place the Spaniards of today with the ones of the 1500s. You seem to act as if the Turks haven't changed and everything, again, with you, is linear. You mention 9/11. Israel killed over 10,000 Lebanese civilians using U.S. weapons. You do the math. Which number is larger 3,000 or 10,000?
Of course, Arab Christians and Muslims of Lebanon are not human beings. Only Americans are and neither were the thousands of murdered Chileans by the U.S.'s ally, Pinochet. You ignore the effects of neo-colonialism and its connection to 9/11. You simply take out politics and boil it down to a religious book.
How does 9/11 by Al Qaeda connect to the Turkish Empire expanding?
I don't see the connexion. Empires expand. I know that's a novel concept for some.
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Yes, those Saudi Arabian books spread. However, you and the other fellow keep throwing wrenches in things and changing and shifting.
When I say Jordan and Syria and many other Arab states don't use those wahhabi texts, you shrug it off, because it doesn't fit your campaign.
They don't. |
What campaign. Who cares if they are in Jordan and Syria? Why don't you pick two more inconsequential states as a basis? This thread is about Saudi books. And these books are found on every corner of the globe. Merely picking two random nations, and not providing any evidence for your claim that fully zero saudi books are used, is neither relevant or interesting.
[How is Syria an inconsequential country? Syria has a larger population than Saudi Arabia with 16 million people. Jordan and Syria combined include 20 million people. You could Lebanon to the mix, and you 23 million or so. How is that insignificant? No, it just contradicts your ideas of trying to simplify everything. I don't have the evidence, but I follow these countries, I know people from these countries. And the article only mentions Saudi Arabia. It doesn't make mention of others, and you without evidence are painting everyone with the same brush. It's sectarianism.
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When someone brought up the British teacher being idiotic and making Christians go through some Muslim prayers, it was ignored that Syria and Jordan only makes Christians take Christian tests. They can't opt out of the religious tests and say they are atheists, but they take the tests of the sect they are born in over there. The same in Lebanon.
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So the don't cut off the heads of Christians. Should I send them a cookie? These are largely secular societies compared to Pakistan or Saudi. And they aren't a large source of immigration to Canada anymore. Pakistan is.
[quote]
[Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria are not large sources of immigration to Canada? What Canada are you talking about? Is it one on the Planet Jupiter? I lived in Montreal, I saw thousands and thousands of Syrians,
Lebanese, and Toronto has plenty of Jordanians. Pakistan is a large source of immigration. The people of Pakistan tend to be very poor and more fanatical (with exceptions) than other countries. Pakistan was created to be separate from the Hindus. So, Canada can scrutinize its immigrants from Pakistan. As far as an outright ban, that won't happen. They can slow it down. I, since 1994, was saying to a Syrian friend who agreed that they shouldn't just open the doors of immigration to everyone and make sure they are suitable candidates. Many of the Arab moderates even say that.
I never said Canada made a good choice or the US or England in just being very liberal in opening their doors to immigrants or illegal immigration from the Middle East or Latin America. I do believe you should make sure people who are suitable come to North America or Europe.
I do believe the dynamic can change in the region with the ending of the Arab-Israeli conflict, getting Syria to stop supporting the fanatical elements, and the US and various Arab groups in the region have to some kind of rapprochemnt.
I don't know much about Scarborough except that maybe 1/5th of the population is from South Asia and many people are from the Caribbean. I never have supported opening the floodgates of immigration from any non-industrialized, progressive country without proper scrutiny or certain standards in place whether we are talking about people from the Caribbean, Middle East, Africa etc... I disagree with you that Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians are not immigrating to Canada in big numbers. Of course, they were coming in larger numbers in the 1990s.
As far as the Copts, they are in a bad position politically and discriminated against. Until some years ago, they had to have permission to even make minor repairs on churches. I have a lot of respect for the Coptic Pope Shenouda, and I personally met him and shook his hand at a Coptic mass I went to in Alexandria. He is a very good man, and I wish the Copts the best.
It doesn't mean though I want to use what's happening to the Copts in Egypt to apply it to every case and everyone. That's not being objective. Egypt has some of the same problems as Pakistan and there are serious concerns when it comes to women's rights and the rights of minorities, but that also connects to the serious poverty found there.
That comment about Syrians, Jordanians, and Lebanese not cutting the heads of their Christians sounds pretty lame. Actually, the Syrian representative to the UN is a Christian. Many people in the Jordanian government are Christian and get treated well. Contrast that with Egypt. The point is Egypt's Christians have a bad situation, without a doubt, but not every country is identical.
Any other Dave's users care to weigh in on this? I don't pretend to be an expert, but I don't want to lump every country, and say that what happened in the 1600s by the Ottoman Turks should be juxtaposed to Al Qaeda in 2001. That doesn't make sense to me.
I have always been concerned about those who would floodgates of immigration from certain countries and that includes Mexico, Pakistan, Egypt, the Caribbean. I don't oppose immigration from those countries, but things should be done from a prudent perspective. Just having tons of people from another cultural setting in huge numbers in your country can create serious problems. I don't agree with very liberal immigration policies, but I don't agree with extreme right wing ones, either. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Fine, but you are still engaging in sectarian talk when you are not seeking any balance. It is one group versus another with no sense of balance. That basically is the path of sectarianism whether one is Catholic, Muslim, or Jewish.
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This isn't our choice to make. And, again, I don't want to impose anything on them. I don't want conflict. I don't want imperialism either way.
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You are mixing different time periods. The Turks were expanding before they were Muslims. You miss that in your attempt to launch a campaign of distorting history and human realities for sectarian purposes.
The Turks didn't go to Vienna in 2008. The situation with copts today is not in the same period as when the Turks ruled the Balkans. The Spanish launched their wars around that time in Latin American and forced Catholicism on everyone there.
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You are trying to separate a long conflict into a neat paradigm that sets the West as the source of all problems without any concern that these problems existed before the West started meddling. You refuse to see the larger issue of a real clash of civilizations. This is not our decision to make. What we can do is choose our level of participation.
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| You mention 9/11. Israel killed over 10,000 Lebanese civilians using U.S. weapons. You do the math. Which number is larger 3,000 or 10,000? |
A naked body count? I don't care what Israel did. I'm neither pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli. I'm indifferent. If you want to make the argument that 1) Israel killed 10,000 people ergo the West must accept millions of muslim migrants, than make it. Stop dancing around.
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Of course, Arab Christians and Muslims of Lebanon are not human beings. Only Americans are and neither were the thousands of murdered Chileans by the U.S.'s ally, Pinochet. You ignore the effects of neo-colonialism and its connection to 9/11. You simply take out politics and boil it down to a religious book. |
No, I boil the book down to the book. What the hell does Chile have to do with this? Do you want to discuss the Korean war next? Totally irrelevant.
Again, I don't ignore the actions of the West in 9/11. In fact, the day 9/11 happened I knew why. Infidels in the land of meccah. I get it. Ergo, I oppose all Western political and military meddling with them. If we had signatures on this site, I would make it mine. I already said "we have to let them fail". Do you understand that?
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How does 9/11 by Al Qaeda connect to the Turkish Empire expanding?
I don't see the connexion. Empires expand. I know that's a novel concept for some. |
A novel concept? You glibly excuse one expansion and then throw Chilie in there? And you say you aren't an apologist? Right. Anyways, the reference to muslim expansion is to help you see that this conflict is older than America. It is older than Israel. But in addition to this the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined with supporting despotic governments there combined with mass muslim immigration to the West is damn right psychotic.
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How is Syria an inconsequential country? Syria has a larger population than Saudi Arabia with 16 million people. Jordan and Syria combined include 20 million people. You could Lebanon to the mix, and you 23 million or so. How is that insignificant? No, it just contradicts your ideas of trying to simplify everything. I don't have the evidence, but I follow these countries, I know people from these countries. And the article only mentions Saudi Arabia. It doesn't make mention of others, and you without evidence are painting everyone with the same brush. It's sectarianism. |
23 Million? Not even the size of uber-inconsequential Canada. Poor and weak too.
But yes, a book that teaches kids to want to kill non-muslims is sectarianism. Exactly. Again, not my choice to make. This is a thread about Saudi, remember?
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[Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria are not large sources of immigration to Canada? What Canada are you talking about? Is it one on the Planet Jupiter? I lived in Montreal, I saw thousands and thousands of Syrians,
Lebanese, and Toronto has plenty of Jordanians. Pakistan is a large source of immigration. The people of Pakistan tend to be very poor and more fanatical (with exceptions) than other countries.
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The vast majority of all immigration (more than 70%) comes from China and South Asia. Look it up.
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I never said Canada made a good choice or the US or England in just being very liberal in opening their doors to immigrants or illegal immigration from the Middle East or Latin America. I do believe you should make sure people who are suitable come to North America or Europe.
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Good. Then why argue with me? Contact your MP.
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I do believe the dynamic can change in the region with the ending of the Arab-Israeli conflict, getting Syria to stop supporting the fanatical elements, and the US and various Arab groups in the region have to some kind of rapprochemnt. |
Go look at a map. You see how small Israel is? Look at the population. You see how small it is? There is an Arab muslim on black muslim/animist genocide in Sudan. You think little Israel can make peace and usher in change from corner to corner? Camon. You aren't that naive, are you? Israel is a distraction, a way to keep the masses of radicals off the backs of the thuggish leaders that run those states. A distraction.
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I don't know much about Scarborough except that maybe 1/5th of the population is from South Asia and many people are from the Caribbean. I disagree with you that Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians are not immigrating to Canada in big numbers. |
Meh, you can go find the numbers. It is all public. The vast majority of all immigration is from South Asia and China.
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As far as the Copts, they are in a bad position politically and discriminated against. |
Oh, it is a bit worse than that.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD195508
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| I don't agree with very liberal immigration policies, but I don't agree with extreme right wing ones, either. |
I assume by "extreme right wing" you mean me. Anti-war, pro-gay marriage/adoption, against the drug war, in favor of universal health care, pro immigration (less the islamic variety) etc etc. Like the "extreme right wing" Swiss who just don't want minarets, or the extreme right wing Wilders who wants left wing Holland to survive, it doesn't take much to make a right winger these days. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| So, you admit you are a sectarian person, and you want to basically draw us into some war. This is not a mature proposition. It's thinking I had maybe a decade ago. It's extreme, but you, of course, think it is an enlightened perspective, and I understand that. |
I think my position is pretty much the same as Mises. I have a very dim view of Islam, but I also have no wish to interfere in their affairs or tell them how to behave in their own countries. Similarly, I have no wish for Muslims to come to the West, bringing their often retrograde culture with them. From this position, how do you summize this as want to draw us into some war?
Only when Muslims have experienced the misery, and social and economic straight jacket of Shariah will they start to realise that Islam is not the solution to all their problems. Recognising, and pointing out that Islam is an affront to most basic human rights does not mean you want to go to war with Muslims.
And by the way, if Islam is so rich and diverse, as you and your apologist ilk proclaim, why are their so few functioning Muslim democracies. Anything to do with Islam? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Nowhere does it say to persecute or hate Christians |
From the Book of Peace and Love
"Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low."
Where are the Saudis getting these ideas from? |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Location: Jeolla province
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Re: New & Improved Saudi Textbooks |
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| daskalos wrote: |
I don't hate Muslims, per se. I hate radical Islam's influence to the same extent that I hate radical Christianity's infuence. My hatred is catholic, encompassing all vilely repressive and hateful doctrines, wherever they occur.
I fear radical Christianity less because there is currently no government with any global power that is in complete thrall to its doctrines. The same cannot be said of radical Islam, if this article is to be believed. |
I don't know...those right-wing fundamentalists like Mullah Dobson and such have a large following and a lot of influence. The Christian Taliban has infiltrated/infested our military, specifically our service academies, and they have influenced our actions (and perceptions of our actions) on the ground in Iraq/Afghanistan.
They don't control everything...yet.
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| Normally, the contents of another country's textbooks would be of no interest to us. Indeed, I've no doubt that there are plenty of U.S. textbooks that contain insane, incorrect, or otherwise unacceptable information. Saudi school textbooks are a special case, however. They are written and produced by the Saudi government and subsequently distributed, free of cost, to Saudi-sponsored schools as far afield as Lagos, Nigeria, and Buenos Aires, Argentina. |
So, this is Saudi Arabian bullshyt textbook version 4.0, huh? Because version 3.5 wasn't bullshytty enough they had to release a new version.
Even with Al Qaeda effectively banished to Central Asia, the Wahhabis will be a thorn in the side of the West for a long time. Of course, we could have dealt with these guys after 9/11 if a certain SOMEBODY wasn't in the oval office. You have the Christians of America to thank for that. |
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