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Korea to Settle Dokdo
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:
Ultimately the legality or rightness of one claim does not matter, as history has shown in any number of disputes.

its all about who is prepared to do the most to enforce their claim.
The sioux have a moral right to the US. But they're not in the white house.

At the moment it is Korea residing on Dokdo, be it right or wrong. I don't see how that will change.

Yes, of course you are right, it really just comes down to power. The rest of the discussion is just about legality and morality (both of which have been shown to be on Japan's side), which are very important issues, but only really in a broader international context (involving other nations like the US). Between just Korea and Japan, it is only a power issue. Bottom line is that if Korea will not give up Takeshima willingly, Japan has the power, the legality (which is why Japan wants to go to international court, to formally prove this fact to the rest of the world), and the moral right to retake it by force, which is exactly what ought to happen. It's not like Korea isn't asking for it...
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In light of what has been shown, Korea, by which I mean the people of Korea, would be wise to accept equal access to the mineral/gas rights around Dokdo.

However, Korea's politicians (and thus unfortunately the 메스컴 as well) find the Dokdo issue all too useful. However, I do not feel sorry for the Japanese government, here. They deserve this, with their stubborn pandering to their own people with Yakasuni.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
[
Quote:
Once again, no valid proof has been given.

You're right about this, except the onus is 100% on Korea.



Nope. Korea HAS possession of the rocks. Were it the other way around, then you would be right.

But as they say possession is 9/10ths of the law...so the onus is on Japan to provide at least 90% of the proof. Twisted Evil

And yes the ICJ's decisions are NOT binding.

And yes, Japan has one of their countrymen sitting as a judge on there

And that is why Korea will not bother.

Were it the other way around Japan wouldn't bother either.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuros wrote:
In light of what has been shown, Korea, by which I mean the people of Korea, would be wise to accept equal access to the mineral/gas rights around Dokdo.

However, Korea's politicians (and thus unfortunately the 메스컴 as well) find the Dokdo issue all too useful. However, I do not feel sorry for the Japanese government, here. They deserve this, with their stubborn pandering to their own people with Yakasuni.

Sorry, but I fail to see how Yasukuni is in any way related to this territorial dispute...

Btw, that shrine does not 'honor' war criminals per se (and never has), the symbolism behind those visits is merely intended to keep the souls of the dead at peace according to the Shinto tradition. I don't see how it's any other country's business how the Japanese choose to handle their own religious affairs, since it's not actually hurting anyone.


Last edited by visitorq on Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
visitorq wrote:
[
Quote:
Once again, no valid proof has been given.

You're right about this, except the onus is 100% on Korea.



Nope. Korea HAS possession of the rocks. Were it the other way around, then you would be right.

But as they say possession is 9/10ths of the law...so the onus is on Japan to provide at least 90% of the proof. Twisted Evil

And yes the ICJ's decisions are NOT binding.

And yes, Japan has one of their countrymen sitting as a judge on there

And that is why Korea will not bother.

Were it the other way around Japan wouldn't bother either.

All you're saying is that it's okay for Korea to illegally occupy those rocks. That's really all you've got to say and it's got nothing to do with legality or morality (not so good at debating that, are you?).

Anyway, that's fine, but then it's equally okay for Japan to simply take them back by force and you will have no legal or moral leg to stand on. If it just boils down to might is right, then the Koreans will lose. I suspect you know this deep down, but you keep balking at the issue because you feel it's your duty to apologize for Korea at every turn.
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Ilsanman



Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you admit it's a racial slur but you don't delete it? Good job mods!!!

Enrico Palazzo wrote:
contrarian wrote:
why guri, you noticed. How sweet!!!!

You position is, and always has been Pro Jap!


Pro-Jap to some might like be using the word guk for Korean. It's not considered enlightened parlance. It is commonly used to lambast Japanese people in a hateful manner.


Only you can stop forest fires....

Your Mod Team....
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contrarian



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that the mods are saying that you shouldn't get your politically correct knickers all knotted over something that may or may not be a racial slur.

Why in heaven's name should Korea "share" the potential oil and gas around Dokdo when they can have it all? The "Japanese" are in a similar dispute with the PRC in another area and with the Russians in a third area.

The "Japanese" are still basically imperialistic and ethnocentric to such a degree as would make a Korean blush. They started and lost a major imperialistic war of conquest and there is a price to pay for that perfidy.

We can prattle on about an ICJ intervention. The new, Right of Center, Korean government is even less likely to settle things down, than the former one was.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

contrarian wrote:
It seems to me that the mods are saying that you shouldn't get your politically correct knickers all knotted over something that may or may not be a racial slur.

Why in heaven's name should Korea "share" the potential oil and gas around Dokdo when they can have it all? The "Japanese" are in a similar dispute with the PRC in another area and with the Russians in a third area.

The "Japanese" are still basically imperialistic and ethnocentric to such a degree as would make a Korean blush. They started and lost a major imperialistic war of conquest and there is a price to pay for that perfidy.

We can prattle on about an ICJ intervention. The new, Right of Center, Korean government is even less likely to settle things down, than the former one was.

Whatever. Korea cannot stand up against Japan if Japan decides it's going to take those islets by force anytime in the future. The Koreans will get their asses handed to them.
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Guri Guy



Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Politically correct. What a joke. It is a racial slur, pure and simple. On the same level as "Gook". If "Gook" is censured, so should "Jap".

Thank you for being mature about it though. I respect that.

The reason South Korea should be mature and take this to the ICJ is simply because better relations will be worth much, much more than Dokdo/Takeshima and area will ever be. Mind you, no one ever accused Korean politicians of being long term thinkers.

Here is a good article. I have included the first section. I highly encourage you to read it.

Seoul�s choice: Busan or Takeshima

Posted by ampontan on Monday, July 21, 2008

SOON OR LATE, South Korea will have to choose which paradigm to apply for its relations with Japan. They have two choices, both of which can be represented by geographical entities.

One choice is Busan, a city of more than three million on the southeastern part of the Korean Peninsula. It lies only 140 miles away from Fukuoka City in Kyushu across the Sea of Japan. Kyushu is the southernmost of Japan�s four main islands and has a population of roughly 13 million people.

The other choice is Takeshima, a group of islets in the Sea of Japan claimed by both countries. (The South Koreans call the islets Dokto.) The islets have a combined area of 187,450 square meters, or 46 acres. In contrast, Central Park in New York City covers 843 acres.

The Busan Choice

Cross-strait relations between Busan and Kyushu have thrived for more than a millennium. The interaction between Kyushu and southeastern Korea was so extensive that some scholars in both countries consider the region as a whole to have been one cultural sphere. The sea route between the two areas was the avenue through which Chinese culture entered Japan. Until the end of the 8th century, Kyushu (and the Japanese imperial court) interacted more extensively with the Baekche and Silla kingdoms than it did with the Japanese northeast.

Today Busan is South Korea�s second-largest city and most important port. It is the hub of Korean logistic operations, has an advanced commercial and industrial infrastructure, and is the center of the country�s offshore fishery industries.

Meanwhile, Kyushu accounts for 10% of Japan�s GDP. Standing alone, the region�s GDP exceeds that of both The Netherlands and Australia.

Earlier this month, it seemed as if the South Koreans under new President Lee Myung-bak would put the demagoguery of predecessor Roh Moo-hyun behind them and choose the Busan paradigm. One of Mr. Lee�s campaign promises was to support the creation of a super-regional economic zone that would include both Busan and Kyushu.

http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/seouls-choice-busan-or-takeshima/
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

contrarian wrote:

Why in heaven's name should Korea "share" the potential oil and gas around Dokdo when they can have it all?.


in other words, they'll totally trash the island, its environment and ecology with messy development, for quick/short term economic gains. How Korean. these people would concrete over Gyeongbokgung palace if someone could make more cash building apartment blocks over it.

I've been to dozens of Korean islands. Most are trashed beyond repair. Any picturesque views have been wrecked by ugly appartment blocks etc, and there is junk scattered all over them.

Compare that, say, to a Japanese island. nearest is Tsushima. They have fenced off half of it and declared it a protected nature and marine reserve. The settlement is clean and tasteful.

My opinion is that land should be given to those who will best care for it.
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Guri Guy



Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Japanese Sea lions are already extinct that were on Dokdo/Takeshima.

Soon Dokdo/Takeshima will be paved over too. Sad

I had proposed earlier that it be made into a nature preserve shared by both countries.

Just like the DMZ. I am hoping North and South Korea will come to some agreement about keeping the DMZ as it is in event of reunification.

Not going to happen though...Just a pipe dream....*Sigh*
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contrarian



Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha! Now I understand it is the environmental movement that guri and nautilis have in mind. We must have all if these nice nature preserves.

Nature preserves don't keep the house warm or feed the kids.

Did it ever occur to you that a very large part of Korea does not want to be nice to the Japanese, for very good reason.
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Guri Guy



Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Sigh* Did you even read the article I posted and linked to?

The economic benefits of South Korea and Japan resolving the issue are many times greater than the resources around Dokdo/Takeshima.

Anyway, keep those hate fires burning.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

contrarian wrote:
Did it ever occur to you that a very large part of Korea does not want to be nice to the Japanese,


Yeah, one set of grandparents were mean to the other.

Quote:
for very good reason


Nah, not really. Assigning guilt to the children (or grandchildren) of the guilty is a solid sign of jackassery.
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

contrarian wrote:

Nature preserves don't ... feed the kids.


You'd be surprised what effect even small preserves have on sustaining life. They act as a fountain, a source.

just as an example: adjacent to the DMZ, but in coastal waters, there is a no-fishing DMZ- an area where neither North korean or South Korean vessels are allowed to fish.

The offshore waters of south korea are terribly overfished: every inch of them covered in driftnets. There is nothing left.

But the fishermen lucky enough to fish along even the edges of that no-go area, bring in massive catches. Because a small area has been left undisturbed by people for nature to replenish itself.
Japan would have no whales or Tuna to eat if Australia had not established massive protected reserves.
If the Japanese had taken only a certain quota of sealions every year, they would not be extinct now.

You need to look at resources in a sustainable and renewable way. korea has not a single nature reserve. Most countries have many.
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