| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
|
 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: For martial artists- When and how did TKD get its crap rep |
 |
|
| ??Any thoughts? I've often wondered how we got from Chuck Norris TKD to what the popular perception is today. Is it the west's fault? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tae Kwon Do is an Olympic sport and "a gentleman's martial art," like fencing or something similar, as my South Korean master explained it. Why burden it with UFC-related expectations that are bound to lead to disappointment? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Tae Kwon Do is an Olympic sport and "a gentleman's martial art," like fencing or something similar, as my South Korean master explained it. Why burden it with UFC-related expectations that are bound to lead to disappointment? |
Ok, fair but also boxing and Judo are olympic sports but haven't suffered the general disdain within the MA community. Obviously there are some good TKD schools out there but generally its thought of as a McDojo martial art. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Allen
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Gunpo
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
When "masters" started saying:
| Gopher wrote: |
| Tae Kwon Do is an Olympic sport and "a gentleman's martial art," like fencing or something similar, as my South Korean master explained it. Why burden it with UFC-related expectations that are bound to lead to disappointment? |
TKD can be a good TMA but it has been diluted and turned into a sport with little practical application. Most TKD sparring has turned into a game of touch tag.
Put full contact sparring back into TKD and get rid of the point sparring. TKD sparring should be more like Kyukushin, or at least like kick boxing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I told my master that they should allow combination punching to the body for points. He thought it was a good idea.
There is only one way you can score points on punches in TKD. I think that is what takes away from it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seoulsucker
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: The Land of the Hesitant Cutoff
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think it got a crap rep about the time they started giving black belts to 2nd graders and soccer moms. The commercialization is what has really hurt the reputation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Allen wrote: |
| When "masters" started saying... |
Actually, I believe Grand Master was his title. And it is a real, sanctioned title. He was pretty serious about TKD; I benefitted from his classes.
That being said, I agree with Seoulsucker here. And I much prefer Aikido to TKD -- for multiple reasons but mainly because it strikes me as much more serious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seoulsucker wrote: |
| I think it got a crap rep about the time they started giving black belts to 2nd graders and soccer moms. |
This was definitely a large part of it. TKD black belts may as well come in Cracker Jack boxes these days. The other reason is that it's not seen as a martial art these days, so much as a circus act where you get to jump really high and break a lot of boards.
"Boards don't fight back."--Bruce Lee |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey. I'll answer from the perspective of an athlete who practices combat sports.
TKD is not practiced fully "alive"--meaning within a ruleset that is closest to genuine combat as possible. A fully able, resisting opponent, who hits you hard anywhere on the body, with any of his limbs, without padding. Because TKD is lacking "aliveness" in that respect, it becomes fairly ineffective when put up against other martial arts that do practice aliveness.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc
The reason why sports like judo, brazilian jiu jitsu, boxing, sambo, freestyle wrestling, greco roman, and muay thai are so prized for people seeking MMA training is because they have a large degree of aliveness. If you've ever practiced Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, you know you will be doing real, full-on sparing every night with an aggressive resisting opponent. That is instant feedback as to whether your technique works or not--so you are constantly refining and improving yourself in a real, empirically tested manner.
TKD could be improved (and has been) by the creation of the sport called San Da in China. It took a lot of TKD techniques (as well as muay thai) but allowed full contact sparring, the catching of kicks, punches, etc. That caused them to raise their guards compared to TKD guys, or they would get knocked out. It caused them to throw more low roundhouses to the leg, otherwise a kick will be caught and you will get thrown, etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Probably when karate & TKD classes exploded into popularity, followed by guys actually putting it into practice and having their asses handed to them by every run of the mill dude swinging haymakers.
God knows how many kids saw "Karate Kid" and tried that grasshopper thing in a real fight, then got his ass beat by a bully. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tell the grandmaster to put his money where his mouth is and enter the olympics.
TKD is good against someone who does not know how to street fight or has no fighting skills.
In MMA....TKD will not be good.
I think if TKD has a bad rep...it's because of the koreans who are self rightous and sanctimonious about it being the best. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If you've ever practiced Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, you know you will be doing real, full-on sparing every night with an aggressive resisting opponent. That is instant feedback as to whether your technique works or not--so you are constantly refining and improving yourself in a real, empirically tested manner. |
From the perspective of another athelete who has practiced combat sports and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. BJJ is hardly a "real life" experience. Of all the arts I have studied I would rate BJJ as probaly most effective in developing stamina and physical strength, but very innefective on the combat front. Like TKD, if you are grappling a complete waif you'll finish him off in a few seconds, but if the guy has anykind of experience and can put up a fight, it'll be a different ball game and one that I would not want to find myself in. I've been in a few rumbles and real life experiences all have one thing in common, something always doesn't go as coreographed. You slam your temple into the corner of the table when you executed that double legged takedown which is a result of having slipped on the spilled beer on the patch of floor directly under you. Or the seemingly tough shirt of your assailant just ripped out of your grasp and now you niotice that he's pulling something shiny from his pocket. Hey I am all for BJJ, its a great workout and its fun, fun, fun. But I'd take what I learned in Judo above anything I got from BJJ as it's more applicalble to the street. BJJ is great in controlled situations but there's no feasible reality in you and an opponent bantering in the gaurd for 10 minutes in a real life scenario. And in real life, being on the ground is not the place to be. Sure the UFC was the closest thing to real life combat but it was orchestrated for the Gracies to win. Grappling is the name of the game in NHB tournaments but there's a referee and the dude's friends can't jump in and get involved. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Allen
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Gunpo
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You show very little understanding of BJJ techniques. Was your training done by DVD or a book?
All the drawbacks to BJJ you mentioned are the same for Judo.
BJJ tend to spar freestyle and the "choreographed" techniques are tested in a live manner.
You realize that BJJ and Judo share many of the same throws?
BJJ does not encourage pulling guard on the street but it is a more practical position than Judo's turtle.
BJJ also goes no-gi, so that shirt rip argument holds no water.
The friends argument can be used against street fighting.
| xingyiman wrote: |
I've been in a few rumbles and real life experiences all have one thing in common, something always doesn't go as coreographed. You slam your temple into the corner of the table when you executed that double legged takedown which is a result of having slipped on the spilled beer on the patch of floor directly under you. Or the seemingly tough shirt of your assailant just ripped out of your grasp and now you niotice that he's pulling something shiny from his pocket. Hey I am all for BJJ, its a great workout and its fun, fun, fun. But I'd take what I learned in Judo above anything I got from BJJ as it's more applicalble to the street. BJJ is great in controlled situations but there's no feasible reality in you and an opponent bantering in the gaurd for 10 minutes in a real life scenario. And in real life, being on the ground is not the place to be. Sure the UFC was the closest thing to real life combat but it was orchestrated for the Gracies to win. Grappling is the name of the game in NHB tournaments but there's a referee and the dude's friends can't jump in and get involved. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Onr thing I'll say, is that TKD can be effective if the student and instructor differentiate between the street and sparring. The term Gyeurogi, is translated into sparring and does not apply many if the lethal strikes one learns in TKD.
For example, throat shots and eye shouts are not practiced, nor are they taught to your average elementary schooler whose mother just want thier kids to have some fun and get a little excercise. The first kick you learn however, is the front snap kickk, which is very fast, powerful and effective, especially when delivered to the gonads
There are "Pro" Tae Kwon Do schools out there which allow punching, but they are few and far between.
I will say that by integrating a few well seasoned TKD kicks such as the front kick, round house kick and an occasional back kick with some good boxing technique, the fella will be hard to beat in the stand up game. And in a street fight, you always want to stay on you feet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| xingyiman wrote: |
| . BJJ is great in controlled situations but there's no feasible reality in you and an opponent bantering in the gaurd for 10 minutes in a real life scenario. |
Interesting. I just got back from no-gi an hour ago and I don't think I spent a period of longer than 30 seconds on my back in guard without changing positions. I think I spent most of the time on two feet, working for a takedown.
Some people develop a style in BJJ that is somewhat bad for MMA and the street--they pull guard, and then work from guard the whole time. That's all up to them, if they want to train that way. It helps win BJJ competitions sometimes, so it's all good if that's their goal. Some people don't care about competing in MMA and that's perfectly fine. My style is more of going for the takedown then top game, which seems to be better for MMA. But there are guys that are great from the bottom in MMA too (Mir did well against Lesnar).
On getting in real life fights, my opinion about that is that's for losers. I've never got into a fight and never will. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
