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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The other poster said that the politicians voted public sentiment. Odd, huh? |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| The other poster said that the politicians voted public sentiment. Odd, huh? |
As far as i recall, the majority was for capital punishment back then (in Canada). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| The other poster said that the politicians voted public sentiment. Odd, huh? |
Does the other poster have a source?
http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php
Scroll down to the 12 paragraph where it states that "popular support had slipped to an all-time low of 61%.." This was in June of 1987.
If the all-time low was 61% in 1987 it stands to reason that it was higher back then in 1966. And 61+% is a majority by just about any standards. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| The other poster said that the politicians voted public sentiment. Odd, huh? |
Does the other poster have a source?
http://www.amnesty.ca/deathpenalty/canada.php
Scroll down to the 12 paragraph where it states that "popular support had slipped to an all-time low of 61%.." This was in June of 1987.
If the all-time low was 61% in 1987 it stands to reason that it was higher back then in 1966. And 61+% is a majority by just about any standards. |
ding ding
+2 points |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| That's my point. If the MPs were voting popular sentiment and said sentiment was in favor of the death penalty, then the abolition of it would never have passed. The MPs voted for abolition and they didn't lose their jobs. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| That's my point. If the MPs were voting popular sentiment and said sentiment was in favor of the death penalty, then the abolition of it would never have passed. The MPs voted for abolition and they didn't lose their jobs. |
Depends when they voted. If it was around the late 80's, then yes, they just might have lost heir jobs. The Conservatives had a strong Gov through the 80's, but that support was eroded in the late 80's and early 90's. It came about for many reasons, but by the entire party was in shambles and the Liberals came to power.
So yes, they did lose their jobs (but there are MANY reasons why, Capital Punishment is probably only one of them).
http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/crime/a/cappuntimeline.htm
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1987
A motion to reintroduce capital punishment was debated in the Canadian House of Commons and defeated on a free vote. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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CentralCali:
In a parliamentary system party discipline is much tighter than in the US system. No, the MPs didn't lose their jobs as MPs but they can kiss any chance they have to be a cabinet minister goodbye.
Also is is easy to circumvent the Charter. It has a "nothwithstanding" clause that can be used to bypass the Charter. Quebec has used it twice and Alberta once. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| In a parliamentary system party discipline is much tighter than in the US system. |
Thus the concept of free votes.
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| No, the MPs didn't lose their jobs as MPs but they can kiss any chance they have to be a cabinet minister goodbye. |
I seriously doubt that. After all, a free vote means there is no party line on that vote, doesn't it? If there were a party line, then the party whip would be doing the exact opposite of what he does during a free vote (nothing), he'd be discussing the vote with the MPs in his party reminding them of the party line, etc. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| All Cabinet Ministers come from MPs. The PM makes the appointments. The way is works is the if MP Joe Schmoe in a free vote, votes other than the way the Pm votes - bye bye Schmoe. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| Human Rights should not apply to the scum of the earth. Pretty simple concept huh? |
Actually, that's a pretty asinine concept.
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| One day, something will happen will change the liberals minds and the laws will be changed. Nothing lasts forever. You talk of laws, which reminds me of why the US has to have prisoners at Guantanamo Bay...to get around the laws. A couple more terrorist attacks on US soil would be pretty much all the government would need to change that precious constitution you keep talking about. |
What has this to do with the subject at hand? That's right, nothing. And I'm not a Liberal. Far from one, in fact.
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| You aren't Canadian and have no idea how fast the government there acts on stuff when it really wants to |
Rubbish. You don't know what my knowledge base is.
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| - IE when the politicians know if they don't they are out of a job. |
Oh, you mean like when the majority of the House of Commons in Canada voted to abolish capital punishment?
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| I'm pretty sure one major terrorist attack would be all it would take for the government there to clamp down hard and make a law that circumvents the charter. |
Pure speculation.
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| All it would take would be a couple MPs to add on something about certain criminals and boom, no more rights for them. |
Are you Canadian? If so, you've just displayed astonishing ignorance of how legislation is enacted in that country.
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| At the end of the day, human rights are a nice thing to have. Many countries, including Korea fall way short of how we have it in the West. However, scum who do atrocities do not deserve them. |
See above about asinine concept. Is this what you want? Note that the children were not molested or harmed in any way but, hey, vigilantism is cool in your book, right? After all, "scum" (in this case, the neighbors apparently considered one of the people, Fair, scum simply because he's gay) don't deserve rights, according to you. |
I think I have a better idea of how Canadian law is enacted than you. I would not be so arrogant as to assert that I know the American system better than an American.
I did not assert that some MPs would propose any laws on their own, but rather suggest to add something to a law that the sitting government would introduce. In the case of a terrorist attack, it would pass a lot easier than you are giving me credit for. We didn't get hit with a terrorist attack and the government changed laws due to pressure from our neighbours to the south.
In the case of an election year, miracles can happen when it comes to Canadian legislation. Look up Lyon Mackenzie King sometime and his party's post-war legislation. A lot of it was due to trying to save their own skins during an election year.
Yes, a group of Canadian MPs voted to abolish the death penalty. However, there is a growing number of Canadians that feel that it should be brought back - for special cases. I am one of those. As I said earlier, when you have video or photographic evidence of a crime taking place, that shows beyond all doubt the person is guilty - if the crime is bad enough, the person should die.
No where did I say that we have to resort to vigilantism, so how is that cool in my book? I said they shouldn't get the same human rights that citizens who act "human" get. That means the death penalty should apply to them. In cases like the US where it costs too much for that process, bring back hard labour.
Oh, and you can keep saying you are not a Liberal...but I don't believe you. I am also not using that term in an insulting way. I am just stating the way I feel about your leftist political leanings, so I see no way in which I would have violated the TOS of this board.
Anyways, I am done arguing. The great thing about this board is everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think mine is right, you think yours is right, and well, let's leave it at that. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
CentralCali:
In a parliamentary system party discipline is much tighter than in the US system. No, the MPs didn't lose their jobs as MPs but they can kiss any chance they have to be a cabinet minister goodbye.
Also is is easy to circumvent the Charter. It has a "nothwithstanding" clause that can be used to bypass the Charter. Quebec has used it twice and Alberta once. |
Alberta's shot and Quebec's second attempt were revoked though. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| That's true, Alberta passed it and wimped out. I expect Stelmach might have hung in where Klein didn't. |
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mmarshalynne
Joined: 23 May 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: kidnapping/murder in Texas |
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While reading about the clerk who was kidnapped and murdered in Texas, I came to the bottom of the article that mentioned that the murderer was previously convicted of sexual assault. (Already, I can imagine that some people on line reading this are saying that the accused is not convicted and that in the United States there is a presumption of innocence until someone is found guilty. However, this man, Mr. Bowman, was on camera kidnapping the woman and took the police to her body. In the US you have the right to a presumption of innocence in the courtrooms not in the minds and speech of its citizens.)
When I saw again a murder committed by yet another convicted sexual predator, I immediately thought of this thread. While reading it earlier, I read one post that suggested that statistics support a claim that rapists rarely reoffend. How could anyone possibly know if the rapist has reoffended as most rapes go unreported? True sexual predators who are convicted often learn from their convictions, as did Mr. Bowman. What they learn is that witnesses may talk and send them to prison. Thus, sexual predators often escalate from violent sexual acts to murder.
Pedophiles, in particular, are not good candidates for treatment and reformation. It's like asking a heroin addict not to take the next hit. While some may walk away from the addiction, they are just one hit away from being a heroin addict once again. I don't want pedophiles walking around in this society seeing and desiring to harm children with only their willpower holding them in check. I am one of those people who hopes that in this imperfect society where pedophiles get short prison terms that they don't make it out of prison alive.
When children are molested, frequently they never heal and struggle with functioning in society for the rest of their lives. Some go on to inflict the same crimes on others as they themselves suffered. Pedophiles often have hundreds of victims before they are caught the first time. The destruction and devastation caused by a pedophile is far greater than someone who commits a single act of murder. Personally, I think they should get life in prison or the death penalty, absent that I hope that illness or prison justice of some sort occurs and causes their death before they hurt one more innocent child. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| seoulteacher wrote: |
| R-Seoul wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
One would think that decent people would rise above the base desire to wish another person be the victim of a crime. One would think that decent people would be aware that it's not really the crime for which the person is incarcerated that leads him to becoming a victim of other prisoners, but his means to defend himself.
One would also think that a person would read the whole story and realize that the particular criminal in this case is going to be tried for another crime. No doubt, he'll find himself serving more time in a Thai jail than the current schedule provides for him.
I agree that the man's sentence is light in comparison to what he probably would receive in our home countries; however, he has been sentenced to serve time in a jail in Thailand. I seriously doubt that the conditions there are anything at all like they are for prisoners in Canada.
I find the man's crime disgusting. And I find the wish for another person to become the victim of a crime also to be a disgusting thing.
So, for the poster above, a question: So, you think justice would be the man be abused by another criminal? What, then, should the other criminal's reward be for meting out that abuse? What if the other criminal is in prison also for molesting a child?
It drives me around the bend to see normally decent, upright people taking glee in a vicious crime being perpretrated or wishing such a crime on another person.
By the way, in case anyone's wondering, yes, I am against the death penalty in all cases. |
Good post, well written. |
I agree with R-Seoul:
good post, well written, CentralCali. |
I just want to chime in with the others above. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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R-Seoul, seoulteacher, and bacaspar:
Thank you. |
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