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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Relax Kiwi. . .
It's lonely around here when you get banned. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Relax Kiwi. . .
It's lonely around here when you get banned. |
Yo, what's up ... hope one doesn't get banned just for identifying trolls, I didn't use any profane language did I? |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Yo, what's up ... hope one doesn't get banned just for identifying trolls, I didn't use any profane language did I? |
Not yet. . .
And welcome back. |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Not yet. . .
And welcome back. |
Thankyou. Now go to the Off Topic and post in my "Alliteration" thread, we need more "serious" posting today of all days. |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
Gord, you're the last person that should ever be talking about credibility, you have none.
If the contract says 30 hours, then you get over time when you work more than that. If you work for 50 minutes here you must be paid for a full hour, end of story. |
You insult me about credibility while not only ignoring the past where you have creatively manufactured many "facts" to underscore your claims, of which both were proven to be false over and over, but now you are choosing to also ignore my links to the government website that explains the law and says you are wrong?
If you wish to prove that you are correct, please link to a government web site that says a person working in a classroom for 50 minutes must be credited for 60 minutes as part of their classroom hours. I've already provided a link from the government that says you are wrong so we're going to need more than your word that you are indeed correct and that both and I and the government link are incorrect. |
Gord.
You might want to reconsider on this one.
andie, did you have a stupid holiday? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Stop being a pedant, be a normal person and assume that my most current post is my current position. I said I don't care particularly much about this debate, please learn to read, and take me at my word. |
While a lovely speech, I fail to see what it has to do with why you haven't produced a single source of evidence to back up your claims to five hours class time is six.
| Quote: |
| I'm not trying to shift the debate material, you are, and it's called a red herring. Please stop posting red herrings. Also, stop writing bold faced lies about me shifting the debate material. That's what you did when you linked to the government site which covered general Korean over time law, which you know is superceded by the contract. |
Please explain to me how a contract that doesn't say "50 minutes will be counted as an hour towards the agreement to teach 30 hours of class time a week" , quoting you here, "in fact it does count by law." as crediting 50 minutes as an hour. I am most curious.
As there is no law anywhere that I know that says that, I simply quoted the most direct law which would be the law regarding working hours. If I had not directed to it you would have simply said "that's not what the law says" and I would then have to post a second message saying "here is the law", thus by pointing to it originally I tried to save some time.
Where is this law you have not shown to us?
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| I'm not clearly stating that it exists, learn to read, and take my most recent post as my position. |
?
So it did exist. But when called on it, you denied you said it. Then when quoted that you said it, you now say it doesn't matter what you said as it no longer applies since you no longer believe it. What a curious tactic.
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Stop posting red herrings.
Stop lying. |
Why do you insult and libel me? You continually claim to be great and all knowing, yet you're posting grade school insults towards ms. Let me know when me move up a middle school level and start insulting my mother.
But while we're here, let's review how I've been lying:
You claimed that legally school are required to credit a 50 minute class as 60 minutes.
I summarly demonstrated that such a claim is false.
You insult me. Claim 50 minutes is 60.
I reply asking why you are insulting me. Cite the labour standards act and how it doesn't support your case.
You insult me. Claim you never mentioned the law. Tried to revise history for anyone just reading the last post and shift the debate from 30 class hours to 30 working hours.
I reply showing with your quote showing you did bring up the law. I ask you to show us this law that supports your case. I also ask you to keep on the subject of 50/60, not teaching/working.
Which brings us here. A message where you insult me, change your opinion, and then cite the "it wasn't in my last message, so it doesn't matter if it's wrong" defence.
The signal to noise ratio in your posts is disturbing. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| The Man known as The Man wrote: |
Gord.
You might want to reconsider on this one. |
Make no mistake, I would be quite pissed if I agreed to work for a school and said I would teach six hours a day and they pulled out a "ah ha! Seven fifty minute classes!" as there obviously is a clear miscommunication.
So that's why I ask.
But if I did wind up in a job like that, I wouldn't run around screaming "the law, the law, the law says you can't do that" because I know that to be false. Probably, I'd just hardball and say "sorry guys, that's not what I signed up for. Either we discuss this or I'd better get going." There is no legal protection for overtime under the law in this case, as seven 50 minute classes totals 350 minutes and 6 hours totals 360 minutes, and the contract states overtime starts at 360 minutes. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| The Man known as The Man wrote: |
Gord.
You might want to reconsider on this one. |
Make no mistake, I would be quite pissed if I agreed to work for a school and said I would teach six hours a day and they pulled out a "ah ha! Seven fifty minute classes!" as there obviously is a clear miscommunication.
So that's why I ask.
But if I did wind up in a job like that, I wouldn't run around screaming "the law, the law, the law says you can't do that" because I know that to be false. Probably, I'd just hardball and say "sorry guys, that's not what I signed up for. Either we discuss this or I'd better get going." There is no legal protection for overtime under the law in this case, as seven 50 minute classes totals 350 minutes and 6 hours totals 360 minutes, and the contract states overtime starts at 360 minutes. |
Gord, most contracts state that 50 minutes is one hour. And I yet have to see one post from one person that signed a contract that states overtime starts at 360 minutes. Yes 120 teaching hours a month is the teaching standard. But it is also standard for both employee and employer to realize that 1 hour equals 50 minutes teaching and 10 minutes break. Sure there are some terrible schools out there that try to have the employee teach the full 120 hours without including a break time. However the majority of schools (judging from both the posts on here and the Korean Jobs forum) take the position that 1 hour is actually 50 minutes teaching and 10 minutes break time.
As for your post about 44 hours, what relevance does it have to the typical hakwon worker? CONTEXT Gord, CONTEXT. The reason I stress this is because when the topic of the thread is say, hakwon jobs and you start talking about 44 hours being the standard, guess what? Most people make the not unjustified assumption that you don't have a clue as to what is going on.
As to the debate between you and Mr. Kiwiboy about the law, sounds to me like one of you is talking about "contract law" and the other
about Korean Labor Law. He claimed (according to you) that schools were legally obligated to credit a 50 minute class as sixty minutes. You say this is false. Let me ask you a question. Would this still be false if this were written into the contract? Let's say that the school promises that 50 minutes (for teaching purposes) would represent one teaching hour. Then legally ( as in the contract) that school is obligated to credit the 50 minute class as one hour.
Well Gord guess what? Most schools do in fact do this. Some however do not honor this obligation and that is what initally sparked this debate between Mr. Kiwiboy and you.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Please explain to me how a contract that doesn't say "50 minutes will be counted as an hour towards the agreement to teach 30 hours of class time a week" , quoting you here, "in fact it does count by law." as crediting 50 minutes as an hour. I am most curious. |
Back to remedial class for you. I've covered this in a recent post. Stop being a pedant.
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As there is no law anywhere that I know that says that, I simply quoted the most direct law which would be the law regarding working hours. If I had not directed to it you would have simply said "that's not what the law says" and I would then have to post a second message saying "here is the law", thus by pointing to it originally I tried to save some time. |
Don't be telling me what I would and wouldn't have written, you have trouble enough with reality, don't be getting into hyperthetical parallel worlds.
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Where is this law you have not shown to us?
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Like a dog with a bone, you don't know when to quite, you're making yourself look psychotic making me say again that I revised my statement on that issue. All of your subsequent references to this prove that you ( assuming you can read ) are a disingenuous troll just looking for something to argue about.
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I'm not clearly stating that it exists, learn to read, and take my most recent post as my position.
So it did exist. But when called on it, you denied you said it. Then when quoted that you said it, you now say it doesn't matter what you said as it no longer applies since you no longer believe it. What a curious tactic. |
It's not a "tactic" Gord, because unlike you, normal people don't consider everything that happens here to be a life and death debate. If I revise a position, that's it, leave it at that. Don't call up the previous position to show how wrong it was, obviously it was changed because it was wrong. Holding on to that aspect of the proceedings only goes to prove what I have said about you several times, you are nothing but a troll. You do it well, you cover your tracks, but I've been here a long time and I've never seen you enter a thread except to dissagree with someone and prove them wrong, and you do it in a very rude way. You are often highly pedantic, that means you may be right on a technicality but you add nothing of value.
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You insult me. Claim you never mentioned the law. Tried to revise history for anyone just reading the last post and shift the debate from 30 class hours to 30 working hours. |
This is classic Gord, I never shifted the debate anywhere. You're often going on about me lying, but it's precisely what you do all the time. I never shifted the debate, but you did, and Urban Myth called you on it, the 44 hours thing was a complete red herring. Stop lying.
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The signal to noise ratio in your posts is disturbing. |
Interesting you should choose this metaphor, as your posts are nothing but pure noise.
Do you want to know why I insult you Gord? 'Cause you're highly insultable. You add nothing to the board, you only enter threads to prove people wrong, sometimes you're even right, factually, but you're utterly pedantic and rarely add anything of value. You continually post against the spirit of any given thread, and are nothing but a sophisticated troll. The fact that I call you on it by "insulting" you does not give you the high ground, it just makes me the more honest person.
| Quote: |
Why do you insult and libel me? You continually claim to be great and all knowing, yet you're posting grade school insults towards ms. Let me know when me move up a middle school level and start insulting my mother. |
No, I don't continually claim to be great and all knowing, either post evidence of this or we'll chalk it up to just another lie from Gord, the master of hypocracy and pedantry. Just to save you a bit of time, if by chance you are refering to threads where I claim to be GOD almighty, well, that's called a joke Gord, you wouldn't know one if it bit you but there you go. If you can find any other instances of where I claim to be great and all knowing, let us know.
As for libel, you take yourself far too seriously. If you think you have a libel case please bring it on, otherwise stop dribbling. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| 100% NOISE, NO SIGNAL |
Other than prancing around like it's amateur hour at club flame, are you going to back up your original claims of how not rounding up 50 minutes into an hour is against the law with any sort of fact? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Gord, most contracts state that 50 minutes is one hour. And I yet have to see one post from one person that signed a contract that states overtime starts at 360 minutes. Yes 120 teaching hours a month is the teaching standard. But it is also standard for both employee and employer to realize that 1 hour equals 50 minutes teaching and 10 minutes break. Sure there are some terrible schools out there that try to have the employee teach the full 120 hours without including a break time. However the majority of schools (judging from both the posts on here and the Korean Jobs forum) take the position that 1 hour is actually 50 minutes teaching and 10 minutes break time. |
I went through a few of the contracts posted in this forum, and they all said either a fixed number of classes or simply "120 teaching hours" with no clarification of length (though one said classes were 3 hours long).
I agree that traditionally, 50 minutes were marked up as an hour, but it's not a legal requirement.
| Quote: |
| As for your post about 44 hours, what relevance does it have to the typical hakwon worker? CONTEXT Gord, CONTEXT. The reason I stress this is because when the topic of the thread is say, hakwon jobs and you start talking about 44 hours being the standard, guess what? Most people make the not unjustified assumption that you don't have a clue as to what is going on. |
It was in the context of government mandated overtime. The government says we are not automatically entitled to overtime until we have worked 44 hours in a week at a company. It was a sideline posting of fact as part of the "the law" issue and how overtime applies.
| Quote: |
| As to the debate between you and Mr. Kiwiboy about the law, sounds to me like one of you is talking about "contract law" and the other about Korean Labor Law. He claimed (according to you) that schools were legally obligated to credit a 50 minute class as sixty minutes. You say this is false. Let me ask you a question. Would this still be false if this were written into the contract? Let's say that the school promises that 50 minutes (for teaching purposes) would represent one teaching hour. Then legally ( as in the contract) that school is obligated to credit the 50 minute class as one hour. |
I already raised that issue and agreed that if a contract says 50 minutes is an hour, then there is no issue. But in my experience and on searching the contracts posted in this forum, contracts rarely state that non-taught time will be credited. So while a teacher may thing 120 50 minute classes is 120 hours, before the law it's a 100 hours.
It was never the morality of the issue which I have already posted we are all in agreement on. It was simply the legalities of the issue. Unless specifically stated in a contract that a 50 minute class will be credited as 60 minutes, if the school demands a person work 7 50 minutes classes instead of the expected six and refuses to pay the expected overtime payment, there is no law that will force the school to pay which is what Kiwiboy has originally suggested. |
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Down from Above
Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Location: Naju
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Having read the whole thread - and now regretting I did so - I believe Gord has the most persuasive argument here. An hour is an hour. Though in practice, I wouldn't go near schools that didn't follow the custom of 10 minutes off per 50 minutes, but that's beside the issue of legality.
| beaver wrote: |
Relax Kiwi. . .
It's lonely around here when you get banned. |
Ahahaha! Actually Kiwi, Beaver's giving you kind advice here - you're in a pissing match here, but it's you who's facing the wind. You might do well to chill down a little and refrain from the insults and namecalling. If you feel Gord's wrong, say so and say why. But don't call him a "troll" - he's not. |
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prairieboy
Joined: 14 Sep 2003
Location: The batcave.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:21 am Post subject: |
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After my first contract finished, I was very aware of the "teaching hour" and making sure it was explicity defined in my subsequent contracts.
As long as the contract meets the minimum requirements of the law, which is the point I believe Gord is trying to make, then an hour is an hour unless otherwise defined in the contract.
Some of us have 50 minute teaching hours, others have 40 minute teaching hours and I'm sure some have 60 minute teaching hours. It's upto the individual to ensure they understand the contract they are about to sign before they sign.
If there is anything that is vague then it's up to you to get it fixed, otherwise you will be stuck in a situation that will not be enjoyable for you nor the hagwon. If you suspect you were duped and signed a contract under false pretenses, then it's up to you to either do something about it or live with it until the end.
Cheers |
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kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: |
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As for your post about 44 hours, what relevance does it have to the typical hakwon worker? CONTEXT Gord, CONTEXT. The reason I stress this is because when the topic of the thread is say, hakwon jobs and you start talking about 44 hours being the standard, guess what? Most people make the not unjustified assumption that you don't have a clue as to what is going on.
It was in the context of government mandated overtime. The government says we are not automatically entitled to overtime until we have worked 44 hours in a week at a company. It was a sideline posting of fact as part of the "the law" issue and how overtime applies.
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Up till that point in the debate there was no "context of government mandated overtime", you just created it. In other words you "shifted the material of the debate", something which you accused me of doing and which I never did. In simple, it was a red herring and completely and utterly irrelevant as everyone knows, the contract states thirty hours and supercedes general law for Koreans. This is your typical MO, accuse me of what I never did, and what you yourself in fact did.
Stop lying.
Stop posting red herrings.
Stop trolling in general.
| Quote: |
| Other than prancing around like it's amateur hour at club flame, are you going to back up your original claims of how not rounding up 50 minutes into an hour is against the law with any sort of fact? |
No one's prancing but, on this rare occasion, you are close to saying something meaningful. I am indeed an amateur member of club flame, you on the other hand are an experienced pro.
And when a debater rescinds a position you stop referring to the rescinded position and continue debating from the new position if there is still debate to be had. Unless of course you are simply looking for conflict and confusion > Mr Gord take a bow, I have retracted the position you mention above, but it's all you want to talk about, that is why I say you are nothing but a sophisticated troll.
Down from Above, I see what you're getting at, but if you read the thread carefully I have retracted the only point that Gord had to attack me with here, but he won't let it drop. This goes back way past this thread. If you check Gords posting history you will see that he rarely if ever enters a thread to do anything but dissagree or prove people wrong somehow. I can't recall ever seeing him enter a thread to agree or post something neutral or anecdotal, funny, or interesting. He's exclusively about proving people wrong. What's more he is often pedantic to a fault, insisting on arguing the literal letter of any debate, sometimes correct, but more often than not he adds nothing to the original spirit of the thread. A true contrarian, he lives to dissagree, causing bad vibes and contributing nothing. I'm not the only one who feels this way. During the debate in the LOTR thread ( that morphed into black music ) I recieved several pm's from high profile posters expressing support for me in taking him on, the names they called him can't be printed here. Needless to say I have hard evidence on in my pm files that I'm not alone in this analysis of Gord and his posting habits. The people who pm'd me all agreed that Gord was a waste of space on the board, but couldn't be bothered wasting energy with him, but were glad that I did.
I don't know what threads you follow or don't follow, but one of Gord's recent positions, which he fought to the death to defend, was "Black music is mainly created by non-blacks". As you can see, this position is not only wrong but inflamatory in the way it is stated. Gord is not even a fan of black music. He found one non black song-writer who had written quite a few hits for blacks, and felt that he had proved his point, and went about trumpeting his victory. I was then banned and not able to respond. I have since located data on black song writers and producers that statistically dwarfs his lone non-black song-writer's efforts, and that thread is coming back.
Gord consistantly accuses me of lying and changing the terms of the debate, when in fact those are his two favourite tactics. So for all those reasons, I call him what he is, a troll, he's just a very good one. |
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maxxx_power
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Location: BWAHAHAHAHA! I'M FREE!!!!!!!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:20 am Post subject: |
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This is too funny, you are really annoyed Kiwi. I have yet to see you win an argument with Gord and it seems you realize this too, getting your panties in a bunch over some internet posts. Accept the fact that you have lost this argument.
The more you try to backpedal, twist the argument and change your position to counter Gord the worse off you sound, insults don't help your position either.
The way your last post reads I'm worried you're going to have an embolism over this.
Relax.
Gord is a cool guy, if you ever have the chance to meet him I'm sure you'd agree. Granted, his posts seem a little critical but he generally provides correct information and backs it up with references rather than conjecture.
You don't always have to have the last word, the Sun will come up tomorrow and McDonald's will be open at 6 am for breakfast. |
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