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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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deleted, see below.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
This criticism has more bite than Swiftboating.
This is a specific piece of legislation being cited, that is demonstrable of a specific decision and vote Obama made while in the Illinois Senate.
I think the impatience seen on this thread from Fiveeagles stems from two things, which play off each other.
1) Fiveeagles makes a strong point
2) Fiveeagles is usually the poster who swings wildly, but he's hit this ball way in out field.
I haven't seen one of the Obama backers field this one effectively yet. |
I admit I have a lot of difficulties with late-term abortion and allied issues. The thing is, though, the only people who want to talk about these things in a presidential election are the anti-abortion crowd. A majority of Americans are pro-choice, and if the Republicans make an issue like this too front-and-center, all it does is provide an opportunity for the Dems to frame the Republican rhetoric as being part of the GOP campaign to outlaw all abortion(which is actually part of the GOP platform.)
So, no. Contra Five Eagles, this is not going to be any sort of an issue in this campaign. |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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I agree Other Hand. This is a non-issue, as framed by the WorldNutDaily. The only thing that rag is good for is bird cage liner. But they're handy to bring about interest to tie-in to a REAL issue being foisted on us now as a timely reminder that the GOP just won't let it go.
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Protections Set for Antiabortion Health Workers
The Bush administration yesterday announced plans to implement a controversial regulation designed to protect doctors, nurses and other health-care workers who object to abortion from being forced to deliver services that violate their personal beliefs. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
This criticism has more bite than Swiftboating.
This is a specific piece of legislation being cited, that is demonstrable of a specific decision and vote Obama made while in the Illinois Senate.
I think the impatience seen on this thread from Fiveeagles stems from two things, which play off each other.
1) Fiveeagles makes a strong point
2) Fiveeagles is usually the poster who swings wildly, but he's hit this ball way in out field.
I haven't seen one of the Obama backers field this one effectively yet. |
I admit I have a lot of difficulties with late-term abortion and allied issues. The thing is, though, the only people who want to talk about these things in a presidential election are the anti-abortion crowd. A majority of Americans are pro-choice, and if the Republicans make an issue like this too front-and-center, all it does is provide an opportunity for the Dems to frame the Republican rhetoric as being part of the GOP campaign to outlaw all abortion(which is actually part of the GOP platform.)
So, no. Contra Five Eagles, this is not going to be any sort of an issue in this campaign. |
Its going to rally the base. A lot of people are very passionate about the abortion issue.
Additionally, the recent Democratic position (and this includes Obama) is to restrict actual abortions. This revelation just shows that yet again Obama has changed his tune.
This is not good for Obama. |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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This little charade is MEANT to rally the base. It's called a wedge issue, devised to distract from the real news. (Announcing a Veep choice?)
No one will change a Pro-Choicer's mind because they correctly realize that the right to choose is and should always be strictly between a woman and her health care provider. If hubby wants a say, that's between him and her--and good for him if he's concerned enough to be in the picture. That man will stand by his wife and do what's best for their family.
Sperm donors can go suck wind or prepare to pay for eighteen years plus. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Its going to rally the base. A lot of people are very passionate about the abortion issue. |
Yes, but the base, by definition, is already voting GOP. The issue MIGHT have the effect of bringing to the polls some anti-abortionists who would otherwise be sitting out the election, but then you also have to factor in centrist voters who are gonna rally around the Democrats if the Republicans start screaming their heads off about abortion. My guess is that there are more of the latter than the former.
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| Additionally, the recent Democratic position (and this includes Obama) is to restrict actual abortions. |
Just for clarification, what sort of restrictions are the Dems proposing? I would assume that, as far as the presidential platform goes, the party is still commited to abortion laws withing the parameters of Roe v. Wade. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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If abortion is so important to Republicans why has it not been banned during this Republican presidency?
Instead of being so 'concerned' about Obama, why not lobby for Bush to do something? Or get a commitment on an anti-abortion law from McCain? The truth is neither candidate is going to do anything significant to change the current law. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Additionally, the recent Democratic position (and this includes Obama) is to restrict actual abortions. |
Just for clarification, what sort of restrictions are the Dems proposing? I would assume that, as far as the presidential platform goes, the party is still commited to abortion laws withing the parameters of Roe v. Wade. |
David Brody explains
| Privateer wrote: |
| The truth is neither candidate is going to do anything significant to change the current law. |
The biggest difference between McCain and Bush is that McCain has always supported right to life, whereas Bush flip-flopped before running as Governor of Texas.
I agree, McCain is not going to do anything significant to change the current law. But McCain will nominate conservative judges. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Kuros:
Thanks for that. But, respectfully, I think you were a bit off when you wrote...
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| Additionally, the recent Democratic position (and this includes Obama) is to restrict actual abortions. |
This sounds like the Democrats want to legally prohibit some abortions. But I didn't see anything like that in the new platform discussed by Brody. Rather, they talk about reducing the need for abortion, via sex education, support programs, etc. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Kuros:
Thanks for that. But, respectfully, I think you were a bit off when you wrote...
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| Additionally, the recent Democratic position (and this includes Obama) is to restrict actual abortions. |
This sounds like the Democrats want to legally prohibit some abortions. But I didn't see anything like that in the new platform discussed by Brody. Rather, they talk about reducing the need for abortion, via sex education, support programs, etc. |
Your wording is better. My point is that the Democrats are trying to soften the impact of Roe v. Wade. They're in a defensive posture, and this revelation about Obama's voting record does not help this position or his reputation as someone who goes back and forth on the issue. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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OTOH, also, this isn't abortion...this is infanticide. Big difference.
There is no way that this is coincidence that Obama announced his VP the day after this story broke. He knows the potential of how it can derail his presidency.
However, this issue won't go away. Sean will run with this story until the election. It's going to pick up steam. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
However, this issue won't go away. Sean will run with this story until the election. It's going to pick up steam. |
You won't need Heidi Baker to bring it back to life then? |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| A nurse at Advocate Christ Medical Center in Chicago testified that she saw babies who had survived abortions left unattended to die, but surviving on their own for several hours. |
That's just friggin sad. Maybe I am missing vital facts, but you know, it makes me very angry. We live in a developed place and killing babies seems so selfish. I think it stems from selfishness. 'Oh, I don't want the baby.' 'Kill it then.' 'Okay.'
Just let the baby live and grow, fㅜcks sake. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: ... |
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I think the impatience seen on this thread from Fiveeagles stems from two things, which play off each other.
1) Fiveeagles makes a strong point
2) Fiveeagles is usually the poster who swings wildly, but he's hit this ball way in out field. |
I'm sure it's the strength of his point and not his premature speculation. I think the ball's out about as far as it is when he says the war is over.
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| I haven't seen one of the Obama backers field this one effectively yet. |
Your "united after the primaries" position only grows in its impressiveness.
This story actually broke about a week ago and not, as Mr Prophecy says, timed to coincide with his VP announcement.
-Obama was negotiating a deal so that related abortion legislation wouldn't be affected by a new proposed piece.
-The legislation already in place had live births covered, so to construe this as proposing infanticide is incorrect.
-In 2005, a new law was put into place that he and the "anti-choice" people found mutually acceptable.
This has teeth for people who would like it to.
Other than that, it's pretty humdrum GOP ordinance hurled by their attack machine.
Attempting to make the election about abortion will only demonstrate how completely out of touch the Republicans are.
If this is their best hit at bat, then I have to agree. It's over. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I haven't seen one of the Obama backers field this one effectively yet. |
Your "united after the primaries" position only grows in its impressiveness.
This story actually broke about a week ago and not, as Mr Prophecy says, timed to coincide with his VP announcement.
-Obama was negotiating a deal so that related abortion legislation wouldn't be affected by a new proposed piece.
-The legislation already in place had live births covered, so to construe this as proposing infanticide is incorrect.
-In 2005, a new law was put into place that he and the "anti-choice" people found mutually acceptable.
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Do you have any links for that info? |
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