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fromtheuk
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Pretty much all ended by the Mongols sacking Baghdad. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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It was not really about Muslims achieving so much versus Christians or Jews, because Muslims are not a race. When Islam emerged, it emerged in Arabia, not in Syria, Persia, or Mesopatamia where there was much scientific and philosophical thought. Much of the thinkers in the Islamic Empire came in areas that had mixed thought and exposure to Greek thought, Aramaic thought, Persian thought etc.... It is more about of the empire having been more open and multi-cultural than it is today, and there wasn't a desire to impose a harsh form of the religion on the larger polity. When they became too sectarian and fanatical and tribal things fell apart. Whenever a society becomes too fanatical, it suffers. The same happened when Spanish Catholics expelled Jews and Muslims.
The Spanish economy suffered. When the Hugeunots were kicked out of France, the French economy suffered. They were advanced people, economically speaking. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Name something that Christians, Buddhists, or Hindus achieved.
Its got less to do with creed and more to do with the ability to deviate from dogma. I.e. the ability to be secular.
The only exception may be the Jews, because they own when it comes to intellectual achievements. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/022991.php
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Fitzgerald: The "root causes" of Islamic disarray
Arabs and Muslims, it has been said, cling to their past. And it�s true: they do cling to "their" past, as long as that past is the past that came after the pre-Islamic past that went before, which is merely one long Jahiliyya, or Time of Ignorance. There is no real interest in that past, though one will find the Iraqi peacock-proud that "civilization started here" -- but he won't know about that "civilization." He won't have been part of the discovery and recovery and study of that "civilization" -- Ur and Babylon and Assyria. For that was a Western thing, a thing that Western Infidels, from Henry Austen Layard to Leonard Woolley, undertook. Copts in Egypt are a very different matter, because they know, even if they do not always say aloud, that they are the true inheritors of Egypt's civilization. They are the ones linked continuously back to Egypt's pre-Islamic civilization, including the language that existed before the Arabs arrived and came, in fits and starts, to reduce the Coptic percentage of the population. Massed forcible conversions were not unknown, especially in certain centuries when a ruler would be particularly aggressive in "spreading" the "truth" of Islam.
Islam is, as has been written here before, "history-haunted." It has to be. It has to be in order to make up for the obviously miserable actual state of Muslims, their civilizational disarray, their primitiveness in everything that should matter and by which civilizations are judged -- and that excludes the trillions of dollars in unmerited oil revenues, and will continue to exclude them, no matter how many Western skyscrapers and companies and luxury goods and palaces at home those trillions buy.
Instead, they look back to a mythical past, of highly exaggerated glories: the wonders of Old Fustat (Cairo), the splendors of Baghdad. In this narrative, the non-Muslims who contributed so much to what there was are not recognized. It's an "Islamic science" and "Islamic civilization" -- when, in fact, if you take away many who were Christians or Jews or Zoroastrians, or if they were not, if they had converted to Islam, then they were only one or two generations removed from being Christians or Jews or Zoroastrians, the numbers of non-Muslims were still sufficient to ensure that the milieu would not be bleakly Islamic in the first few hundred years after the initial Islamic conquests.
But now, because of the behavior of the Muslims themselves, they have been emptying out their lands of non-Muslims. The Jews -- who, for example, constituted a third, an important enlivening third, of the population of Baghdad in the 1920s -- are all gone, driven out, or killed. The Christians hang on, here and there, but they were killed en masse in Iraq -- 100,000 Assyrians massacred -- after the British left in 1932, and the exodus of the past few years, in response to the Islamic terror, has led to a dimidiation of Christian numbers, with more decreases to come. In Egypt, the Copts hang on, and even exhibit, at times, the usual depressing phenomenon of islamochristian attitudes when, with Muslims in power and of course vigilantly observing, they cannot complain as they would like about their status, and they often must parrot the party-line about Israel -- while they are held captive to Muslim masters in Egypt. When they attain freedom in the West, they can and are more candid, less frightened, less wary.
And of course all those Levantines -- those Greeks and Italians, as well as those Armenians and Jews and other nationalities, once made Cairo and Alexandria more interesting places, where in high-ceilinged coffee rooms, with newspapers including locally-produced French and English language newspapers, one could sit and read and talk to one's friends and play cards or possibly tric-trac. And now I find myself practically writing some Farouk-era scene -- or back, back further, to the last days of Lord Cromer -- for the script of some movie, to be filmed by some Egyptian director, full of nostalgia (see "The Yacoubian Building") for those Italians, and Greeks, and Jews and Armenians, and all the others, including British subjects, who were booted out by Nasser, and all of their property seized (that had been slowly amassed over many generations).
No, Ungaretti and Cavafy were both born in Alexandria. But there won't be any more ungarettis or cavafys coming out of Egypt. There won't, similarly, be much coming out of Baghdad. No latter-day mutannabis from a Muslim-only land will be coming out of a culture that thinks of poetry now as merely an extension of propaganda -- see Adonis on the state of "Arabic literature" (he says angrily that "there is no Arabic literature" but only propagandistic trash). Nor will they be coming out of the Maghreb, now that the French (and others -- Spanish, Italians, Jews) left Algeria, and Morocco, and Tunisia. The wasteland that Islam creates is obvious to all. That is why Muslims themselves keep harking back to some earlier time, some time when things were so different, their books exaggeratedly tell them (the Self-Esteem problems of an entire civilization is a difficult task to deal with), and they were sitting on top of the world.
But one wants to say, as one looks over the past thousand years or so of Muslim history, and failure to produce -- see the West, see the East (the real East) -- to the Islamic world, something like:
What Have You Done For Us Lately?
And then one would like to go further, and see how many of the most advanced people who were born into Islam and live in that world, can begin to catch a hint of a glimmer of why it is that Islam itself prevents the enterprise of science. Its view is that the individual is unimportant and merely part of a collective, the Umma, or Community of Believers, a mentally submissive Believer who must be a "slave of Allah" and never dare to question the rules set down by Allah (and derived by Islamic scholars from the Qur'an, as glossed by the contents of the Sunnah). A believer must be punished for any display of free and skeptical inquiry, which prevents the enterprise of science (though not of technology, not for example of computer engineering or certain kinds of medical practice -- but not scientific research, unless undertaken in the West, by someone who though nominally a Muslim, has become only a "cultural Muslim"). And art, the varieties of artistic expression that are simply haram in Islam -- all sculpture, and depictions in paint, or drawings, of living creatures, and most music, so that one is left with calligraphy and architecture.
All of this, at some point, intelligent Muslims and Arabs are going to have to recognize, little by little, and some are even going to have to discuss it openly. And that will be made easier for them if we Infidels show that we are perfectly at ease in recognizing that the political, economic, social, moral, and intellectual failures of Muslim states and societies, polities and peoples, are connected to the texts, and tenets, and attitudes naturally arising from those tenets, of Islam itself.
If we show that we not only can laughingly reject the nonsense about how the "root causes" of Islamic disarray, and violence, and aggression, and failures, have something to do with us and everything to do with them, and what's more, if we can articulate it (though never as well as the defectors from Islam are able to do, for they know where every little secret lies, and we don't), that is the only way to bring about the kind of "change" that makes sense in the Arab and Muslim world. |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Tell me about what Muslims ever achieved .... |
To me, I would define it as follows:
Islam has created a greater synthesis between Eastern and Western ideas around governance of society and has given a set of ideological tools to a vast number of people, possibly up to one fifth of the world.
Plainly, the Islamic world has made a significant contribution to:
- Medicine
- Mathematics
- Physics
- Astronomy
- Finance
- Geography
- Architecture
- Art
- Literature
- History
- Law
You can point to specifics in any one of those areas and give pros and cons of "their system" verses one under socialism or capitalism has worked.
The question though, is how Islam responds when their societies evolve into dictatorship and their achievements in the above areas are overtaken by dogma. |
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Louie
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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I see where the OP is getting at......
The problem with all these achievements is that they were all accomplished during the "Golden Age" of Islam when their grip was felt all the way from sections of the Philippine Islands to the Iberian Peninsula...
However, by the time Europe was on a binge of carving up the world into Spheres of Influence and Colonies, the influence of Islam was on a severe decline to what was left in the Ottomen Empire and Mugal Empire (before Britain took it over and incorporated it into India)......
The 20th Century saw the diminish of Islam as a political as well as religious force. Yet groups like the Taliban, Al Qaeda and so forth, are being seen in the Islamic world as groups that will bring strength and pride back into their faith (kinda' like the way the Templars, the Teutonic Knights and the Order of Malta were seen back in the Middle Ages in Europe).........Thats why they are able to recruit so many willing "jihadi", collect many 'charitable contributions', and based on the Islamic belief that "Thy will shelter my enemy's enemy", are able to find many safe havens all over the Islamic World. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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They invented algebra.
That was the first time I ever heard of the Muslim origins of do-re-mi-fa-so. The usual story is that it was designed by a Christian monk named Guido d'Arezzo. He took the first syllable of each line of a Latin poem. Those first syllables were ut, re, mi, fa, so, la, and ti. It was later decided that ut sounded ugly, so it was substituted with do.
This is off the subject, but we were debating the pro's and con's of Christianity on another thread. I conceded that the Christians built schools and hospitals. I started to type "and libraries," but then realized that I didn't know of any major libraries built by Christians except perhaps school libraries.
Then I realized why: A Christian school is in a position to indoctrinate you with Christianity. A Christian hospital is in a position to bias your opinion toward Christianity. But a good library? At a good library, you can check out any books you want on any subject you're interested in. You are also free to accept or reject anything written by the authors of those books. You might end up--shudder! gasp!--disagreeing with Christianity! |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Religion never invented anything since Religion is an invention in itself.
For inventions to take off, you need an open society where commerce and education walk hand in hand.
Religion is always dogmatic, and therefore, has the tendency to reduce (if not wholly abolish) new ideas that challenge the concept of their religion.
So drop the Islam, Christianity stuff, and let people make up their own minds. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| It is indeed the case that Muslims totally schooled Christians in the Middle Ages. It doesn't make any difference. The Nazis built the Autobahn and invented Methadone, but that's no excuse for having anything other than revulsion for Naziism. |
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Louie
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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I have to totally agree with the statement that an open society is needed to provide the atmosphere needed to foster a creative society....
However, Europe in the 11th, 12th and 13th Centuries was not that kind of society.....remember Copernicus was persecuted for claiming (rightfully) that the Earth was not the center of the universe, but instead evolved around the sun, which was the true center of the galaxy....
Islam didn't interfere in science to the point that every discovery was considered blasphemy.
In fact, the major thrust in their "jihad" is the Al-Wahhab sect, which is a mixture of ultra-orthodox and mysticism. They don't only want to return Islam to its greatful place in the world (so to speak) and revive the great age, they also want to continue their conquest that was abruptly interrupted by their defeat in Budapest and Vienna several centuries ago...
Ironically, the Taliban are following the Al-Wahhab theocratic ideology.
Where did they learn such?
They learned it while getting financial support from the Saudis during the Soviet-Afghan War (1979-89), the Al-Talib Regime (1996-2002), and now during the insurgency............Saudis provided money that built hospitals in the mountains of Afghanistan and in the Northwest Tribal Province in Pakistan, constructed training camps that were later used by Al-Qaeda to train terrorists, including those involved in the WTC attack, and the most controversial, the Saudis provided financial backing for the building and maintaining of the many Madrassas (Islamic Religious Institutes) where Al-Wahhab ideology is taught to a young generation who will rise up against the west.......
Wasn't the ancient proverb, "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer" originally an Arab proverb?
Sorry to get off-topic, but I have a question;
| Quote: |
| The Nazis built the Autobahn and invented Methadone, but that's no excuse for having anything other than revulsion for Naziism. |
During WWII, didn't the many Arab countries open support the holocaust?
I remember reading that Persian King, Reza Pahlavi, wanted to allign himself with Germany but was overthrown by the allies and replaced with his son.
If I am wrong, please tell me--- thanx in advance..... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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The Islamic Empire was successful in bringing various peoples together.
However, let us add that large parts of the Middle East that produced inventors were connected to civilizations that were already advanced.
Prior to the conquest of those lands, the Muslims of Arabia were not advanced, but their Aramaic relatives and Arabic relatives who were Christian were advanced scientifically and culturally, and they capitalized on that, and there is nothing wrong with that. They did successfully bring Persians, Christians, and Muslims together. Some of the best physicians were Assyrian Christians. Muslims did quite well from people who were related to them, and the West then learned from them. It is not about the religion per se, because the Christians of the region were quite advanced, and these Christians didn't have to become secular in order to be sophisticated. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| They did successfully bring Persians, Christians, and Muslims together. |
Like white people brought blacks and Indians together in the Americas!
But at least you, Adventurer, seem to get that the islamic golden age was first and foremost them living on the advances of the previous occupants of the now muslim land, and the contributions of infidels or recent converts.
Once islam is totally embedded in society, it destroys everything. Scorched earth.
It is like I run into a library, kill or convert everybody and then claim that all the books are the product of me and my people. How absurd. |
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Otherside
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Louie wrote: |
During WWII, didn't the many Arab countries open support the holocaust?
I remember reading that Persian King, Reza Pahlavi, wanted to allign himself with Germany but was overthrown by the allies and replaced with his son.
If I am wrong, please tell me--- thanx in advance..... |
That was Reza Shah, his son was Reza Pahlavi.
Anyways, it's quite a weak link when discussing the Muslim world as the Pahlavi dynasty was perhaps the most secular government in the history of the Muslim world. |
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Louie
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanx for the clarification.... 
Well, Reza Shah was trying to modernize Persia (Iran) after unifying the nation when he took power. The mullahs and the Ayatollahs still yielded much influence until the 1950's.
However, during WWII, many locals helped the Vichy French and the Germans during the campaigns in North Africa, Syria and Lebanon against the allies. Iran was on the verge of doing the same.
Fearing that Middle Eastern oil would end up in the NAZI war machine, Free French, British and Russian invaded Iran, Syria and Iran under the premise of keeping them nations away Fascist influence....
And during the Cold War- much of the Middle East (Iran joining after its theological revolution in '79) became moderate patrons of the USSR (with the exceptions of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Algeria, Egypt (during the UAR days),whose political systems looked toward Moscow for political guidance)...
Now, many places are looking for support from reacertive China and Russia to counter the influence of the US and the EU.......just because they view the US and EU of blindly supporting Israel... |
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