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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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So what?
This is your evidence that we are in the Great Depression, that we are hitting unemployment in the twenty-something percentages, that food rationing and soup kitchens are upon us?
I think you are a bit too eager to make the stretch that America is falling from the Empire State Building's eightieth floor, Ya-ta Boy.
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I guess I'll wait another day for you to be able to read a post for what it says rather than what you fantasize.  |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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No. I know where you are coming from: the demon-like Republicans have brought the sky down upon us. Now the heroes will come into power and save the day. "Happy days are here again," you sang.
A child could get it.
________
This unfolding fact pattern does not conform to the Depression-era's fact pattern in the least, incidentally...
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WASHINGTON -- President Bush announced Saturday that he will host the first of what could be several summits of world leaders to discuss the global response to the financial crisis...
"Together we will work to modernize our financial systems," Bush said. "We must resist the temptation of financial isolationism."
Bush said the summit would include developed and developing nations from around the world...
Sarkozy emphasized the need to bring Asian states into the discussions.
"We must make haste, because we must stabilize the marketplace," he said. "This is a worldwide crisis, so therefore we must find a worldwide solution..."
Last week, European countries acted quickly to prop up their banking systems, promising billions of euros in loan guarantees and billions more to invest in troubled banks. Sarkozy alone pledged to pour 360 billion euros into the French banking system.
On Friday, Germany's upper house of Parliament unanimously voted to adopt a $670.7 billion stabilization package for the country's economy.
The Swiss government announced Thursday that it would invest $5.3 billion into banking giant UBS to strengthen its capital base. The Swiss National Bank will also give UBS a $54 billion loan to create a stabilization fund.
Singapore said Thursday that it will guarantee $102 billion worth of bank deposits for more than two years. Earlier, Hong Kong moved to protect its deposits.
The South Korean government announced a package of foreign currency payment guarantees worth $100 billion for domestic banks to help stabilize the nation's volatile financial markets, state-run media reported Sunday.
The government will guarantee the payment of all foreign currency loans raised by Korean lenders abroad until June for a period of three years, the Yonhap news agency said. |
CNN Reports |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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Whether the economic crisis is as bad as people say or not it still does not make it right for companies that are being bailed out with public money because of their mismanagement to be paying their executives huge bonuses.
It seems like Gopher's just trying to change the subject on this one
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Well, then your how-it-seems detector is off.
First, I agreed with Mises's take on this story. Second, I selected one of the parts of the article that Mises bolded and emphasized and then I responded to it.
What is your problem? |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Well, then your how-it-seems detector is off.
First, I agreed with Mises's take on this story. Second, I selected one of the parts of the article that Mises bolded and emphasized and then I responded to it.
What is your problem? |
Stills looks like an attempt to change the topic to me. I guess your 'how-it-seems detector' and mine work differently.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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A child could get it.
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And yet you don't. Hmmm. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| How is it that the United States is on Mars..? |
If you're referring to Washington D.C., I've been wondering the same thing myself. |
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Rum Jungle
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: North Asia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| sojourner1 wrote: |
| I hope the new administration clamps down and sets things straight. |
Thus the hyperbole. I do not think that people truly believe this nonsense about the end of America and the utter collapse of its economy, etc. Because your and others' hope that "the new administration will set things straight" does not reconcile with that. If the former were true, then the new administration's task would be to pick up the pieces and redefine America's role in world affairs, now as a second- or third-rate nation-state, now under China's thumb, at best. B. Obama could not "clamp down" on this because the patient should already be bled to death and there could be nothing to clamp down on anymore.
This hyperbole nicely supplements the other campaign-year propaganda positions, though: elect B. Obama or else "the rest of the world" will not like us, or else we will prove ourselves a racist country, and now, or else we are all going to die of hunger and cold, etc. |
Gopher. Due respect but..
No one doubts American scientific achievement whether it be in biotechnology/aerospace or any other scientific field.
Do you think American financial advances under Clinton/Greenspan/Bush have kept pace with the science? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Rum Jungle: does your name refer to the Monterrey Bay's club? Nice place.
I think you missed my point, above. Let me ask you this: do you think the United States is in decline if not collapsing? If so, how have you determined this? And how do you reconcile that claim with all of what I list above as well as the fact that, say, tens of millions of Mexicans want to get into the United States, but tens of millions of Americans are not looking to get into Mexico -- or anywhere else, for that matter. Compare this to, for example, East Germans' streaming into West Germany as Eastern European Communism collapsed in the late-1980s.
Here is something I hastily Googled to help...
Comparative Economic Growth Chart
And here is another Kuros posted not so long ago...
Relax |
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sarbonn
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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People can argue economics back and forth all they want, but what really should be of concern is the perception of the American people because that's getting worse and worse. And when it goes down, people stop buying things. And then the economy gets worse and worse causing more people to be concerned and even less of buying things.
Right now, the bailout hasn't actually caused America to jump up for joy that solutions are on the way. For the most part, most Americans don't even understand what's going on with the economics, but when they see executives taking perks like this with what they perceive is the money that taxpayers gave to them to fix the ship of the economy, it continues that belief that things are only going to get worse and that greed is going to be paid back with more and more bailouts while people have no recourse but to watch their country fall into the gutter.
That's where the perceptions are going. Some people think Obama will make things better, but generally people are in a holding pattern right now, not even convinced ANYONE can fix the problems because the greedy people who touch the money are the ones they perceive as causing the problems, and there's no incentive for them to stop being greedy and to stop what people perceive is outright theft. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| sarbonn wrote: |
| People can argue economics back and forth all they want, but what really should be of concern is the perception of the American people because that's getting worse and worse... |
Exactly. The first Bingo yet.
Step back from this and ask who the parties are who attempt to influence and shape public opinion and what they hope to achieve by it, and we can begin to theorize what is going on. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| sarbonn wrote: |
| People can argue economics back and forth all they want, but what really should be of concern is the perception of the American people because that's getting worse and worse... |
Exactly. The first Bingo yet.
Step back from this and ask who the parties are who attempt to influence and shape public opinion and what they hope to achieve by it, and we can begin to theorize what is going on. |
Greenspan's voodoo economics ought to be left at the door. There is a real economy that exists independent of the perception of the real economy. If anything, Americans have been over confident for about a decade, compared to their real situation.
We aren't even close to the end of the financial crises, let alone the economic crises. Absolutely nothing can change this.
http://www-tc.pbs.org/newshour/rss/media/2008/10/21/20081021_solman.mp3
http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monitor/254130/bloomberg_october_23_2008_roubini_says_panic_may_force_market_shutdown |
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Rum Jungle
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: North Asia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Rum Jungle: does your name refer to the Monterrey Bay's club? Nice place.
I think you missed my point, above. Let me ask you this: do you think the United States is in decline if not collapsing? If so, how have you determined this? And how do you reconcile that claim with all of what I list above as well as the fact that, say, tens of millions of Mexicans want to get into the United States, but tens of millions of Americans are not looking to get into Mexico -- or anywhere else, for that matter. Compare this to, for example, East Germans' streaming into West Germany as Eastern European Communism collapsed in the late-1980s.
Here is something I hastily Googled to help...
Comparative Economic Growth Chart
And here is another Kuros posted not so long ago...
Relax |
Gopher, nothing so elegant as the Monterey Bay Club, I'm afraid to say. An Australian uranium mine in the Northern Territory instead!
US collapse, no. Long-term US decline, no. With the caveat that, apart from US military supremacy, other regions/countries, (Europe, even China) may challenge in soft power, and in scientific fields.
Depends how bad the recession is going to be in the US. If short and growth returns quickly then...you'll be proved correct. Although, didn't Greenspan and the deregulators of the US financial system imply an end to the boom/bust cycle through getting government out of any supervisory role? I may be wrong, I don't have any citation. And...not having any economics training I'm hesitant about economics arguments. Though the professionals seem to have done as good a job as any amateurs at mucking things up.
Wait and see on the US recession seems to be the best approach. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Rum Jungle wrote: |
| Wait and see on the US recession seems to be the best approach. |
Could not agree more. |
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