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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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I think the question re: how B. Obama will approach Iraq depends on his mandate and Congress's composition. It could go more than one way.
Also, no matter how much power the Democrats amass, I reject this idea that they might simply fold up all tents and flee. Wait and see -- just like everything else at the moment.
We shall probably know much more in approximately forty-eight hours. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Reading all the posts here - I can only come to one conclusion.
Some people continue to believe the lives of "others" are somehow less valuable and just plain "less" than those who lost their lives on 9/11.
These same people, can't see through the "fog of" and really believe that their government, Western governments are killing civilians only "incidentally" and take great care in making sure to "only get the bad guy".
I will state -- nothing could be further from the truth and the proof is the thousands of innocents who've been tortured, bombed and snuffed out like they were but "fleas". Does technology mean we can hide from this? Does our power mean we can't do the right thing and use other means?
Are not the actions (to use one concrete example) of the U.S. in strafing and bombing Azizibad and killing over 60 children in their beds not of the same "terrorist" quality as 9/11? Is it not even worse that the U.S. reported no civilians were killed and they got all the "bad guys". Who can believe this government anymore?
Many more thousands have died in Afghanistan from American bombing than 9/11. Is this not terrorism? Please look at this chart cataloging the death by American "higher learning" ONLY between 2001 and 2002. Why don't Americans know about these killing fields?
http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
See an up to date list here at this wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
I'll call evil to count - WHEREVER I SEE IT.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Reading all the posts here - I can only come to one conclusion.
Some people continue to believe the lives of "others" are somehow less valuable and just plain "less" than those who lost their lives on 9/11. |
Your conclusion is correct.
One theory may be that it's just part of the tradition of looking at non-whites as less than whites. After all, for many years, blacks were looked upon as livestock in the South and even Northerners were instrumental in counting blacks as 3/5 of a human being for many years. I think it's something that is still subconsciously deeply ingrained the psyche of many. |
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Ivor
Joined: 24 Oct 2008
Location: Wherever you are!! Really! (in Daejeon)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
| Ivor wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Ivor wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Stopping Saddam , Khomeni or Bin Laden or those that follow them is justice and it saves lives and it has saved lives. |
But the US did create Saddam and Bin Ladin 
<History Check requested> |
Not really.
Those Afghans who fought the Soviets got their money and weapons through Pakistan who got stuff from the US. The US never organized anything and Al Qaeda wasn't even started until either 1988 or 1996 depending on what is considered to be Al Qaeda. which was after the US stopped giving stuff to Pakistan.
The vast majority of Saddam's weapons came from France and the USSR .Not the US. Iraq had no jets , no tanks and no guns from the US. Its SCUD missiles came from Russia via North Korea. Saddam's chemical factories were from Germany When Saddam invaded Iran the US didn't even have diplomatic ties with the US.
Thanks for giving me the chance to correct the history here. |
Notice
DUAL USE.
What did the US have it for. The US wasn't using it for the same stuff that Saddam was using it for, not only that most of the stuff wasn't tightly controled which meant that nearly any nation in the world could buy it.
The fact is that the vast majorty of Saddam's weapons came from the USSR and FRANCE and Iraq's chemical plants came from Germany.
By the way Thirdworldtraveler is not a reliable source.
| Quote: |
BERGEN: This is one of those things where you cannot put it out of its misery.
The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.
The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him. |
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html |
Giving DUAL use tech to a terrorist?
WOAH! You make my day! I arrest my argument! |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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RJjr wrote:
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| It's what we do. At some point, hopefully we can move on like the Vietnamese have. |
Are you referring to the Vietnamese who fought aganst the U.S. or those who supported our efforts and paid with their lives after the fall of Saigon? Or perhaps you're referring to the Vietnamese who were not partisan but suffered terribly under communism post-1975?
Please clarify, as we wouldn't want to have the impression of you as just another naive left wing nut poster.
In another jewel of sociological analysis, RJjr wrote:
| Quote: |
| One theory may be that it's just part of the tradition of looking at non-whites as less than whites. After all, for many years, blacks were looked upon as livestock in the South and even Northerners were instrumental in counting blacks as 3/5 of a human being for many years. I think it's something that is still subconsciously deeply ingrained the psyche of many. |
This conclusion would only be reached by a non-American who thinks he understands Americans better than we do. Or it could possibly be an American who's so far gone down the PC road that he can't find a detour back to reality.
Either way, it's ridiculous. Why, yes, RJ, don't you know most Americans voting against Obama harbor these thoughts, thinking of him as 1/2 Black because, in fact, that's what he is. And yes, as they wander to the polls they're thinking, "Gee, if only Blacks were treated like livestock again I'd have a free servant." Keep smokin' that pipe.
By the way, Junior, what do we call Blacks who look down on Latino immigrants, or Koreans who look down on Blacks, or Blacks who look down on FOBs?
ddeubel surmised:
| Quote: |
| Some people continue to believe the lives of "others" are somehow less valuable and just plain "less" than those who lost their lives on 9/11. |
Your leap in logic would have made daredevil Evel Knieval envious. Allow me to span the chasm long enough to say deducing our collective regard toward Syrians on the basis of a cross-border defensive attack is an amazingly willful pursuit of the judgmental.
But you can always count on a Leftist to label any violent act against a non-White as racially motivated. Congrats, the Black Caucus would be proud of you. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| But you can always count on a Leftist to label any violent act against a non-White as racially motivated. Congrats, the Black Caucus would be proud of you. |
I think it is you that is filled with ideology and class/race b.s. As I often tell Gopher - wipe that L and R off your hands. You'll feel rather liberated once you do....
Sorry, still not a sniff of proof in your pudding. Please try again.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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head-in-the-clouds
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: London for now
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Reading all the posts here - I can only come to one conclusion.
Some people continue to believe the lives of "others" are somehow less valuable and just plain "less" than those who lost their lives on 9/11.
These same people, can't see through the "fog of" and really believe that their government, Western governments are killing civilians only "incidentally" and take great care in making sure to "only get the bad guy".
I will state -- nothing could be further from the truth and the proof is the thousands of innocents who've been tortured, bombed and snuffed out like they were but "fleas". Does technology mean we can hide from this? Does our power mean we can't do the right thing and use other means?
Are not the actions (to use one concrete example) of the U.S. in strafing and bombing Azizibad and killing over 60 children in their beds not of the same "terrorist" quality as 9/11? Is it not even worse that the U.S. reported no civilians were killed and they got all the "bad guys". Who can believe this government anymore?
Many more thousands have died in Afghanistan from American bombing than 9/11. Is this not terrorism? Please look at this chart cataloging the death by American "higher learning" ONLY between 2001 and 2002. Why don't Americans know about these killing fields?
http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
See an up to date list here at this wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
I'll call evil to count - WHEREVER I SEE IT.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
You live in a cloud where money grows on trees and faries live at the bottom of the garden.
For me, some lives are more important than others. Unlike you michael moore types i do place the lives of my people ahead of others. Sell outs. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Ivor"]
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Ivor wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Ivor wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Stopping Saddam , Khomeni or Bin Laden or those that follow them is justice and it saves lives and it has saved lives. |
But the US did create Saddam and Bin Ladin
<History Check requested> |
Not really.
Those Afghans who fought the Soviets got their money and weapons through Pakistan who got stuff from the US. The US never organized anything and Al Qaeda wasn't even started until either 1988 or 1996 depending on what is considered to be Al Qaeda. which was after the US stopped giving stuff to Pakistan.
The vast majority of Saddam's weapons came from France and the USSR .Not the US. Iraq had no jets , no tanks and no guns from the US. Its SCUD missiles came from Russia via North Korea. Saddam's chemical factories were from Germany When Saddam invaded Iran the US didn't even have diplomatic ties with the US.
Thanks for giving me the chance to correct the history here. |
Notice
DUAL USE.
What did the US have it for. The US wasn't using it for the same stuff that Saddam was using it for, not only that most of the stuff wasn't tightly controled which meant that nearly any nation in the world could buy it.
The fact is that the vast majorty of Saddam's weapons came from the USSR and FRANCE and Iraq's chemical plants came from Germany.
By the way Thirdworldtraveler is not a reliable source.
| Quote: |
BERGEN: This is one of those things where you cannot put it out of its misery.
The story about bin Laden and the CIA -- that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden -- is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.
The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him. |
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html |
Giving DUAL use tech to a terrorist?
WOAH! You make my day! I arrest my argument! |
What the US gave Saddam was only a small part of everything Saddam had. It wasn't the US who made Saddam.
Besides Saddam was fighting Khomeni , Khomeni was a fascist bigot.
The US supported Stalin against Hitler too. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
RJjr wrote:
| Quote: |
| It's what we do. At some point, hopefully we can move on like the Vietnamese have. |
Are you referring to the Vietnamese who fought aganst the U.S. or those who supported our efforts and paid with their lives after the fall of Saigon? Or perhaps you're referring to the Vietnamese who were not partisan but suffered terribly under communism post-1975?
Please clarify, as we wouldn't want to have the impression of you as just another naive left wing nut poster. |
When I'm in Vietnam, I never hear ANYONE bellyaching over what's known as the American War there. It seems they've moved on, the ones I've been around anyway. When I'm there, I stay in HCM and the coast. I've never been to Hanoi. In fact, the only reference I've ever heard was when I told one guy that I was surprised how well English is spoken in rural Vietnam in comparison to urban South Korea. He replied, "A lot of English was learned and passed on because of the American War." That was the only thing I ever heard about the war. Their airport security didn't get all anal because I'm American and nobody seemed to harbor any animosity toward me over race or nationality.
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
This conclusion would only be reached by a non-American who thinks he understands Americans better than we do. Or it could possibly be an American who's so far gone down the PC road that he can't find a detour back to reality.
Either way, it's ridiculous. Why, yes, RJ, don't you know most Americans voting against Obama harbor these thoughts, thinking of him as 1/2 Black because, in fact, that's what he is. And yes, as they wander to the polls they're thinking, "Gee, if only Blacks were treated like livestock again I'd have a free servant." Keep smokin' that pipe. |
I'm an American and over the years while working on farms, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard another farmer or farmhand say things like, "If Lee hadn't surrendered, we wouldn't have to be doing this," I would have been able to retire before I graduated high school. And these days, when I hear Obama referred to as a "ni--er" I don't think they care how much white ancestry he has.
I understand that many people who vote against Obama don't hate blacks, and I'm voting for either Charles Jay or Ralph Nader myself. But I am saying that race is a huge factor in the former Confederate states. I was in a store today and the shopkeeper said that he "ain't voting for a ni--er." It's common to hear that and I can't believe you're trying to say it doesn't happen!
Which state are you from? With the exception of southern Florida, if you say you're from one of the states that had a star on the Confederate battle flag, I'm going to be in disbelief. But frankly, it sounds like you're the one from another country. |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:24 am Post subject: |
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RJjr persisted:
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| Even mainstream media sources like MSNBC do articles about how most people care more about white victims. |
Yes, MSNBC thrives on articles about racism; it's about as fair and balanced though as FoxNews. Anyone with an ounce of media savvy knows that. Even SNL is lambasting one of their operatives, Keith Olbermann in an upcoming skit.
So you take instances where some people tend to care more about Whites and make a sweeping judgment of the state of race relations in this country. How utterly presumptuous if not arrogant of you.
As for Vietnam:
| Quote: |
| When I'm in Vietnam,... |
Oh, go often, do you?
| Quote: |
| ...I never hear ANYONE bellyaching over what's known as the American War there. It seems they've moved on, the ones I've been around anyway. When I'm there, I stay in HCM and the coast. I've never been to Hanoi. |
Of course not: Southeast Asians tend not to nurse old wounds like East Asians for reasons I still don't fully understand although I suspect part of it derives from a Buddhist philosophy of life. That said, you shouldn't expect most to complain regardless as they were either sympathetic to the South Vietnamese cause and the American presence or too young to have experienced the war. This is especially true in Saigon.
| Quote: |
| In fact, the only reference I've ever heard was when I told one guy that I was surprised how well English is spoken in rural Vietnam in comparison to urban South Korea |
.
Doesn't speak well of the Koreans, now does it? You can attribute it to contact with Americans but after the war Vietnam entered a period of more than two decades where English was mostly absent. The colonial legacy, as you should know, is French and Japanese.
No, what this tidbit demonstrates is how pervasive xenophobia is in Korean attitudes toward learning any foreign language well. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Reading all the posts here - I can only come to one conclusion.
Some people continue to believe the lives of "others" are somehow less valuable and just plain "less" than those who lost their lives on 9/11.
These same people, can't see through the "fog of" and really believe that their government, Western governments are killing civilians only "incidentally" and take great care in making sure to "only get the bad guy".
Is that any worse than not seeing through the "fog of" propaganda from Syria?
I ?
Are not the actions (to use one concrete example) of the U.S. in strafing and bombing Azizibad and killing over 60 children in their beds not of the same "terrorist" quality as 9/11? Is it not even worse that the U.S. reported no civilians were killed and they got all the "bad guys". Who can believe this government anymore?
It is interesting that you will believe a government which has a long history of supporting terrorists and terorist camps within its own borders rather than the U.S when there are two competing stories. It certainly lays waste to any claims of objectivity, when without even bothering to check or wait to see who is right, you jump in on the side of the terrorists.
http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
See an up to date list here at this wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_of_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
I'll call evil to count - WHEREVER I SEE IT.
DD
http://eflclassroom.ning.com |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Yes, MSNBC thrives on articles about racism; it's about as fair and balanced though as FoxNews. Anyone with an ounce of media savvy knows that. Even SNL is lambasting one of their operatives, Keith Olbermann in an upcoming skit.
So you take instances where some people tend to care more about Whites and make a sweeping judgment of the state of race relations in this country. How utterly presumptuous if not arrogant of you. |
Can you name any blacks who got as much media attention as Natalie Holloway, Lacy Peterson, Jon Benet Ramsey, or that Caylee girl that has been on that Nancy Grace show on CNN every night for the past month?
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
As for Vietnam:
| Quote: |
| When I'm in Vietnam,... |
Oh, go often, do you? |
Of course I do. In fact, I'll be flying there after Christmas (or might wait until after the New Years Day football games) to stay with my favorite girlfriend until it's time to come back and plant crops. How often do you go?
| Quote: |
| ...I never hear ANYONE bellyaching over what's known as the American War there. It seems they've moved on, the ones I've been around anyway. When I'm there, I stay in HCM and the coast. I've never been to Hanoi. |
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| Of course not: Southeast Asians tend not to nurse old wounds like East Asians for reasons I still don't fully understand although I suspect part of it derives from a Buddhist philosophy of life. |
^
| Quote: |
| make a sweeping judgment of the state of race relations in this country. How utterly presumptuous if not arrogant of you. |
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| That said, you shouldn't expect most to complain regardless as they were either sympathetic to the South Vietnamese cause and the American presence or too young to have experienced the war. This is especially true in Saigon. |
If you don't think there were many Vietnamese in the south who were against us, you don't understand one of the reasons why we lost.
If race relations are as good in America as you like to pretend they are, how can this be an article from today, November 4, 2008? How can people, in the year 2008, still vote to keep a predominantly black school named after a KKK leader who traded blacks as livestock and fought to keep blacks enslaved? It's an embarrassment. It may not be an embarrassment to you, but it is to many of us.
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20081104/BREAKINGNEWS/81104001/1006/NEWS01
Forrest was the Grand Wizard of the KKK after being a Confederate general. He was one of the biggest slave traders and slaveowners in the history of America.
Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote the following in a letter to his sister penned immediately after the Battle of Fort Pillow: "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."
Which state are you from? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| RJjr wrote: |
When I'm in Vietnam, I never hear ANYONE bellyaching over what's known as the American War there. It seems they've moved on, the ones I've been around anyway. |
There's a simple explanation for that: The Vietnamese won.
You don't moan over a war you won. Did the U.S. moan over what the Japanese did to us during WWII? After dropping two atomic bombs, firebombing Tokyo, and trying war criminals, the U.S. seemed pretty satisfied.
It's not about race. It really isn't. It's about victory and power and injury and hurt pride. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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RJjr boasted:
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| Of course I do. In fact, I'll be flying there after Christmas (or might wait until after the New Years Day football games) to stay with my favorite girlfriend until it's time to come back and plant crops. How often do you go? |
Oh, well pardon me; of course I should have known you're a frequent flyer to Vietnam. 
So one of your favorite girlfriends lives there, eh? Another egalitarian rake to the rescue! Just what Asia needs: more Western men on the sleaze circuit. Tell me, does she have a name or just a number in your little black book? |
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