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danseonsaeng
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Let's say I want a quality university gig... |
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So, let's say I want a quality university gig and I'm indifferent to location...
1. Is a TESOL or CELTA certification + experience (let's say 2 years) enough or should I have an MA?
2. How do I find a quality university gig? Are there some obvious places I should be looking? I've noticed that some university websites list job openings while others do not. Someone (please) point me in the right direction.
3. What sorts of benefits should I expect? I've heard things thrown around like '4 months vacation!' or '12 working hours per week!' What's realistic? What desirable?
4. Places I should stay away from?
5. Places I should look into?
6. Anything else I should know?
Let's try to keep the responses constructive, you know? If I sound naive, I am. Help me along the way; I appreciate it.
Thanks very much.
- Dan 선생님 |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 1. Is a TESOL or CELTA certification + experience (let's say 2 years) enough or should I have an MA? |
Possibly. CELTA is great worldwide, but Korea doesn't consider it all that special. Korean universities want MA's, but aren't always able to get them. Most BA's (I'm a rare exception) get jobs at out-of-town universities or in unigwons, then build experience there. Then they might get on at a slightly better school later. There is a limit here as to how good of a school you can work at with just a BA. Same with an MA and not much experience. The better schools want Ed/Linguistics/TESOL-related MA's.
Also, they may want you to have Korean experience, simply because they might fear you won't adapt to the culture well and run. Your TESOL should be 100 hours or greater, IMHO. That's what public schools require. If you're a higher-level MA or Ph.D, they won't care as much about this.
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2. How do I find a quality university gig? Are there some obvious places I should be looking? I've noticed that some university websites list job openings while others do not. Someone (please) point me in the right direction. |
Dave's job ads, or the websites for the universities themselves. Do a google search for a list of Korean universities. Start clicking the links that come up and check out the English side of their web pages. Often these schools never advertise.
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| 3. What sorts of benefits should I expect? I've heard things thrown around like '4 months vacation!' or '12 working hours per week!' What's realistic? What desirable? |
The 12 working hours thing is rare these days. Hongik is one of the few that still do this. You'll need one of the better jobs (requiring good credentials plus years of experience) to work just 12 hours. Most smaller unis an unigwons are around 15 hours base plus a few hours or more of OT.
Vacation is often 4 to 5 months, BUT you may have to teach part of that -- depends on the school. This may/may not be considered as OT pay, depending on the school. This can make for a huge difference in pay for the year.
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| 4. Places I should stay away from? |
1. I've seen HUFS (Hankuk Univ. of Foreign Studies) come up a lot
2. Some religious-based institutions
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| 5. Places I should look into? |
At your experience level, the best you could probably do is Hongik. Try some schools outside of Seoul for a start.
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| 6. Anything else I should know? |
Most univ. jobs aren't what they used to be. The jobs with the unigwon (language academy) side are usually far worse than the English Department jobs. This is not true at my school, but at most it is. If you teach at a unigwon, you might end up teaching kids. You may have to pay your dues at such a school first.
I see the trend going toward people with MA/TESOL equivalents or higher getting the best jobs around here. The BA people will be stuck in unigwons, mostly. Many schools (Hongik, for example) now have term limits. This creates a pool of floating, experienced teachers who will go from one job to the next. It makes it more difficult for people with a BA to get in at a semi-OK univ. job.
Many univs don't pay visa runs or yearly bonuses.
Public school jobs often pay similar, have a yearly bonus, have built-in privates (teaching children of the teachers at school), have predictable schedules, and more vacation than a hagwon. High school public school jobs at a privately-owned school sometimes offer as much as 2 to 2 1/2 months of paid vacation per year -- some of it during the cheapest flight times (all univ gigs make you fly during the peak flight times). There are diamonds in the rough out there. You also have NO homework to check.
At uni jobs, you check a lot of homework. |
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danseonsaeng
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks very much for the prompt/informative response.
Some follow-up questions:
1. Where are you currently studying? I'm considering applying to Sookmyung Women's University; I've heard great things about their TESOL MA program (supposed to be one of the oldest and most respectable around town). It's an intense two and a half years, but might be well worth the effort. Any other local TESOL MA programs you can recommend?
2. Is it possible to continue on with SMOE while pursuing an MA? I worry about burning out.
3. A little background info - three years ago, I studied at Yonsei's Korean Language Institute for six months (up to Level 3) and spent another year studying the language at home. Hopefully, my background with the language and culture will be a benefit. Plus, I'm planning to acquire my TESOL certification from Thailand's Chiang Mai University this summer (or I could wait to get CELTA-certified in the Spring).
4. I noticed that Hongik is hiring for the Spring semester right now; do you know if they hire periodically throughout the year or just during specific times? I ask because my contract with SMOE runs out in August; I assume there'll be another round of hiring around that time, but I could be wrong.
5. Just to clarify - if I'm looking into to a private high school gig, will I need to apply directly with the school? If so, where should I start? SMOE only handles public high schools, correct?
6. Thanks again, I appreciate your help. |
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withnail
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| That's an excellent summary of the situation given by Bassexpander! |
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Tamada
Joined: 02 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| withnail wrote: |
| That's an excellent summary of the situation given by Bassexpander! |
Withnail....I was wondering if you had received my e-mail? |
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withnail
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| YEp. I replied to your personal email address! |
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PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Common sense, but since you asked, we'll be nice. Better the degree, better the job (and, yes, I'm sure there are one or two BA holders out there with remarkable positions who will harp in on this). Tack on more certificates and more years of experience, and you're more competitive.
The BassMan is right in that most of the positions blow compared to even just a few years ago. With the BA, minimum experience and some certifications, you can expect a crap departmental job or a crappy to decent unigwon job. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 1. Where are you currently studying? I'm considering applying to Sookmyung Women's University; I've heard great things about their TESOL MA program (supposed to be one of the oldest and most respectable around town). It's an intense two and a half years, but might be well worth the effort. Any other local TESOL MA programs you can recommend? |
Sookmyung's course takes a lot of work and time. It is worthy of note that it was partly the brainchild of Korea's current president's female education guru (not sure exactly what her position is). She came from Sookmyung. No doubt she is pushing for this TESOL to be something everybody should get, as it helps her school/friends make money. That is how Korea works. Last I heard, they charged something like 3.5 million won for the course, and were overbooked with Koreans clammering to get in. No doubt some people perusing this board teach that course.
The question I'd have about it is why, if it's so good, can so many Korean's pass it? I can tell you one thing for certain is that a few of the Koreans I know who passed it would never have made it through the CELTA. Their English level is worthy of respect, but the CELTA would have been tougher.
Would Sookmyung's course be recognized as much outside of Korea? Perhaps. I honestly don't know. But given the two, if you can swing a month off to do it, I'd go with the CELTA.
In my honesty opinion, though, YOU DO NOT NEED ANY TEFL CERTIFICATION IN KOREA. I'd put your time and effort toward an MA in TESOL or Applied Linguistics. That will bring you much better results in the land of univ. jobs.
Another thought -- if you've really got a boner to do a TEFL/TESOL program, then look into what USA school Sookmyung's classes count towards. There is some school in the USA where their course counts as a certificate in TESOL (I think). If they offer an online program, perhaps you could finish an MA with them after finishing the TESOL course at Sookmyung. I am not sure this is possible -- just a thought.
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| 2. Is it possible to continue on with SMOE while pursuing an MA? I worry about burning out. |
I'm working an average of 20 hours per week at a university, and having to check student work that comes as a part of my class. I'm doing my MA/TESOL. I don't have a lot of evening life, but it's ok -- I'm married. I just park my butt at home with my wife. Yes, you can certainly do it. My MA program allows me 5 years to complete, so if I feel burned out, I can take breaks. It should take me another 2 to 2 1/2 years to complete, with no breaks. I'm 1/2 year in.
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3. A little background info - three years ago, I studied at Yonsei's Korean Language Institute for six months (up to Level 3) and spent another year studying the language at home. Hopefully, my background with the language and culture will be a benefit. Plus, I'm planning to acquire my TESOL certification from Thailand's Chiang Mai University this summer (or I could wait to get CELTA-certified in the Spring). |
Fabulous. You're rockin', dude. In my opinion (for me) learning Korean is far more difficult than getting an MA/TESOL. You will have no problems.
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| 4. I noticed that Hongik is hiring for the Spring semester right now; do you know if they hire periodically throughout the year or just during specific times? I ask because my contract with SMOE runs out in August; I assume there'll be another round of hiring around that time, but I could be wrong. |
You're actually a little late for some jobs. My univ. is done hiring, for the most part. That's for March positions. To get an August job, you'll want to start perusing the boards in late spring to summer. The times have been pushed up a few months, because schools got burned last year due to the new E-2 visa requirements and criminal checks. Still, many schools are stupid and haven't figured out they need to hire early.
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| 5. Just to clarify - if I'm looking into to a private high school gig, will I need to apply directly with the school? If so, where should I start? SMOE only handles public high schools, correct? |
I found mine on some hardly-used website (not dave's) that had very few hits. It was a fluke that I found it. If I were you, I'd search every site you can find that has anything to do with Korean teaching jobs. Google search on a string like "Korea private high school" or something similar. Also put your name in with recruiters like Korvia.com and many others. Tell them exactly what you are looking for. Different recruiters may offer you other things and tell you what you want is impossible to find. They do this hoping you'll just take one of their jobs. Hold out until you find what you want. |
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kiwiliz
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Bassexpander,
I found your reply very helpful also. |
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Jimskins
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got an MA in TESOL and am teaching for my second year in Korea at a girl's high school in Daegu (my first year was at a Hogwan). I have no other teaching experience, my major was Law. Does anyone think I'll have enough to go for decent uni jobs in Seoul at the end of my contract (August)??? |
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ajgeddes
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Location: Yongsan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| Most BA's (I'm a rare exception) get jobs at out-of-town universities or in unigwons |
Don't you work in a unigwon? |
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chaz47
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Let's say I want a quality university gig... |
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| danseonsaeng wrote: |
- Dan 선생님 |
You shouldn't using this suffix in your own title. It's an honorific so it sounds weird for you to use it when describing yourself. I used to do it too. Make sure when you are looking for the job if you are using Korean just call yourself:
영어강사
I think that's the most appropriate one for general usage as an English instructor.
Good luck in your hunt. My job is pretty good but I think I lucked out. I have only a BA and had 2.5 years of experience when I got hired. I work 18 hours or less per semester and make 2 million after taxes. It seems kinda low I know, but it is only my first year and I get lots of side work if I want it for a good wage, usually 35,000 to 50,000 an hour. If I get my grading in quickly I can muster 6 weeks of holiday during the summer and winter. I also get a week off midsemester.
I do teach 3 hours a day for a month during the breaks but the classes are dinky. Like 4 or 5 students who just want to practice their English. They're usually capable, sincere and respectful. It's really not even like working except for the commute and I need to dress relatively well.
I think it depends on where you look. I got mine in Busan but there were a couple country universities that seemed interested too. Similar offers in pay and hours. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| ajgeddes wrote: |
| bassexpander wrote: |
| Most BA's (I'm a rare exception) get jobs at out-of-town universities or in unigwons |
Don't you work in a unigwon? |
Yes. I worded it poorly. I meant that I'm a rare exception in that I got my uni start in Seoul.
My "unigwon," at least for the last 3 years, has been different than the traditional unigwon. We teach university-level required or elective courses. There are a few enrichment courses, but those are also taught by the people in the English department as well. We also teach around the same amount of hours at the same pay.
But things can always change. I heard a rumor today that we will be team-teaching with Korean professors next semester. My guess is that these will be courses for other non-English classes. I was approached about teaching this way last year. We really don't need a team-teaching environment for English classes, unless they want to put us in with the ultra-low level students (some of whom feel slighted that they don't get a waygook in class).
I'll know more next week. We found out because one of our new hires asked a coworker about this "new thing" that they were told about. We haven't technically been informed of it yet.  |
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danseonsaeng
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: Sookmyung's TESOL MA |
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Bass,
Thanks, thanks, thanks again for the comprehensive rundown.  I really appreciate it.
Just to clarify, I will be doing Sookmyung's MA TESOL program. Should take anywhere from 2.5 to 3 years to complete, but it'll be well worth the time and effort, I'm sure. In the meantime, I'll continue on with SMOE (most likely). I'm working at a fantastic middle school in Nowon (wayyyy NE Seoul); couldn't be happier, really. The work's demanding, but extremely emotionally and spiritually (in the non-Christian sense) rewarding.
You're right, though - if I were doing just the cert, I'd definitely go for CELTA over TESOL. The British Council Korea's got a course starting in February, but I missed the cut off by a few weeks (ouch). Anyway, I'll start at Sookmyung in the fall and go from there (fingers crossed).
Chaz,
How did you start the university job hunt? Did you start with websites (and were the listings posted in Korean or English?) or did you just travel to some spots in person? What was your method? You said there were some country universities offering modest deals - how were you able to discover and make contact with those schools?
It's likely I'll be staying with SMOE for at least two years, but in the event that somethings goes wacky, I would definitely prefer a 'lesser' university gig to something hagwon-esque.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts. Thanks very much for posting. |
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danseonsaeng
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: P.S. |
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| So much as I love and appreciate Dave's job listings, I'm a bit wary of schools advertising on this site (maybe rightly so?). I guess you gotta watch for those gems, though. Anyway, just wanted to say that (of course) I'll continue to check this site for opportunities, but was wondering more about alternatives to Dave's. Let me know your thoughts, thanks again. |
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