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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: How About A Truth Commision to Unravel Bush's Wrongs? |
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Personally, I don't think it's enough. The damage done to America has been so bad that we'll be living with it for decades, and future leaders and high-level officials need to see some things happen to those responsible, bad enough so as to be deterred and so the republic need not fear repetition of such heinousness in the coming decades.
Truth Commissions have been tried before, in places like Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Bosnia, and even here in Korea in a very tiny way. I'm not sure the results have been what people have wanted - they involve blanket amnesties against prosecution return for clarity about facts regarding events of a nature that would otherwise be considered nothing else than monstrous. Many have been left unsatisfied - the mother of a son who was made into a deseparecido (disappeared one) will always wonder if a man sitting across the aisle from her on a bus is a man who helped cut the hands off of her offspring and dump him in a mass grave.
The Obama team is talking about it now, because impeachments have been "off the table" (Nancy Pelosi's words, I think) since the Dems took over Congress.
Michael Isikoff | NEWSWEEK
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"At a minimum, the American people have to be able to see and judge what happened," said one senior adviser, who asked not to be identified talking about policy matters. The commission would be empowered to order the U.S. intelligence agencies to open their files for review and question senior officials who approved "waterboarding" and other controversial practices. [...]
A new commission, on the other hand, could emulate the bipartisan tone set by Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton in investigating the 9/11 attacks. The 9/11 panel was created by Congress. An alternative model, floated by human-rights lawyer Scott Horton, would be a presidential commission similar to the one appointed by Gerald Ford in 1975 and headed by Nelson Rockefeller that investigated cold-war abuses by the CIA. |
It's not what a lot of us want, and it's nothing like what justice would demand, but it would be better than nothing.
Stuart Taylor Jr. | NEWSWEEK
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| In my view, that plan should include promptly appointing a bipartisan, blue-ribbon commission to evaluate the prisoners. The commission's mandate should include an exhaustive study of each prisoner: how he has been treated at Gitmo; whether there is enough admissible evidence to prosecute him in a federal court or by a regular military court-martial; whether he appears to be dangerous; whether to release or continue detaining those who do appear to be dangerous but cannot be tried; and whether to pay compensation to some or all of those who have been wrongly detained. The commission's proceedings and final report should be public, except to allow for the protection of intelligence sources and methods. Those who are found not to be dangerous should be released or transferred to other countries. As soon as possible, Obama should move the remaining detainees to prisons inside the United States to erase Guant�namo's ugly symbolic stain on America's image. |
Gitmo will almost certainly become a quaint historical footnote and hopefully and artifact to remind us of how easy it is for us to use our fear as a reason to betray our own ideals.
As for Truth, though, with a capital 'T' ... what questions do you want the answers to? Here's a few from me ...
1. Whose bright idea was it to link Iraq so intimately with Al Queda that invasion was the best and only option - despite the fact that Saddam and bin Laden never even liked each other?
2. Who came up the notion of inventing a fairy tale about WMDs in order to scare Congress and the public into backing an unnecessary war and occupation?
3. Come to think of it, why did Rumsfeld and others seem to believe that an occupying military force less than half of what generals had counseled was the necessary size would be able to do the job of swiftly and peacefully leading into democracy a nation divided among several sects and ethnicities, especially when that country has had no prior tradition or even inclination toward pluralistic and amicable power-sharing?
4. What made any of these people think anything less than insurgency and civil war would result from disbanding the world's 3rd-largest standing army without making them turn in their weapons?
5. Who had the very clever bit of "wisdom" that you can call something a war when there is no specific foreign power to conquer and demand surrender from?
6. Who among the leadership of the military and intelligence community thought that torture would be a fine way to gather intelligence, when every professional interrogator for literally decades has made the case that the chances of false Intel far outweigh any conceived benefit? Did they really think that calling it "enhanced interrogation" would dissuade anyone from knowing what it really is?
7. Why did members of the NSA believe that spying on the phone calls of American citizens would preserve democracy rather turn our society into a police state? And if it was okay for them to do it, as has been claimed, why did they promise to stop after the judicial branch told them to?
8. I haven't even mentioned Gitmo yet. Don't get me started on that ...
You can add more to the list if you want. What sort of things do you want a Truth Commission to uncover? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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The Bobster,
My understanding is that the function of a Truth Commission is to heal the wrongs of an atrocity or a genocide. In many cases, legal immunity has already been granted as a compromise with the rulers to allow int'l intervention. Thus, the rulers step down in promise for legal immunity. And so, the Truth Commission proceeds as a way of healing the wrongs in the understanding that justice has already been forfeited so that the suffering might come to an end.
I am not sure a Truth Commission would be appropriate here. You would need legal teeth to excise some of the Bush people in the CIA, DHS, and the FBI. However, that might appear to some as a witchhunt . . . |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I would not support that, Bobster. You are equating the W. Bush Administration to A. Pinochet's dictatorship, the Guatemalan military and its genocidal program in the 1980s, and South Africa under Apartheid. Not a witch hunt, Kuros. Unbridled hyperbole. Cindy-style.
Further, this does not represent an investigation in true sense of the word. People like Bobster already know "the answers" and want to ram them down everyone else's throats. So add "crude knowledge/power play" to the above... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Innocent people were tortured to death. That deserves something. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The American govt, a police state, according to Bobster, disappeared and tortured innocent American citizens to death? News to me. Where, when, how many, etc.? Be specific. Name them. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Who said American citizen?
Maybe start your research here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0854678/
Gopher, your government kidnapped and tortured to death innocent human beings. This is not an opportunity for you to do your defend America dance of defensiveness. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Nonsense, Mises. Muckraking nonsense. As far as your accusing me of playing the defense: I love how would-be prosecutors' first move here is always to attempt to suppress and utterly silence the defense. But if that is what turns you on, then enjoy yourself.
And Bobster: Iskoff has taken too many liberties with this...
| Quote: |
| ...a presidential commission similar to the one appointed by Gerald Ford in 1975 and headed by Nelson Rockefeller that investigated cold-war abuses by the CIA. |
This was not what the Rockefeller Commission was about at all. I have read its findings, and the Church Committee's findings, as well as its participants' commentaries on it, including W. Colby. Have you?
If you or others want to initiate a Truth Commission and "investigate" the W. Bush Administration, you need to start off by acting in good faith. I have not seen that here. And that is all I have to say about this hysteria.
I predict you will see about as much success as the "Impeach W. Bush now!" mob has enjoyed these last few years. And in any case, B. Obama's treatment of J. Lieberman, H. Clinton, and his reaching out to Republicans strongly suggests that he will not go where you want him to go here.
We need leadership, Bobster, not sensational show-trials. Interesting precedent you would set here: legitimizing an incoming president's persecuting the outgoing administration... |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt a truth commission would ever come to pass in the USA right now. Not to be cynical, but I think that democratic politics(and not just in America) is a bit too clubby for that. Obama's appointments so far indicate that he's pursuing(for better or worse) a bipartisan path. Putting top-level administration officials on de facto trial would kind of upset that apple cart.
But here's an idea: the Democrats could, in one way or another, allow a lot of "buzz" to develop about prosecuting Cheney and other characters from the Iraq/War On Terror horror show. Obama and Company stay above it all of course, just allow lower-level flacks in Congress and the media to make a bit of noise about prosecution. This in turn would prompt the outgoing Bush to issue Ford-style pardons to any officials of his administration who could be vulnerable to prosecution, thus basically announcing to everyone that his administration was sleaze-on-wheels. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to see a commission get to the bottom of waterboarding and other forms of torture used...but I sincerely doubt that would ever happen.  |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Nonsense, Mises. Muckraking nonsense. As far as your accusing me of playing the defense: I love how would-be prosecutors' first move here is always to attempt to suppress and utterly silence the defense. But if that is what turns you on, then enjoy yourself.
And Bobster: Iskoff has taken too many liberties with this...
| Quote: |
| ...a presidential commission similar to the one appointed by Gerald Ford in 1975 and headed by Nelson Rockefeller that investigated cold-war abuses by the CIA. |
This was not what the Rockefeller Commission was about at all. I have read its findings, and the Church Committee's findings, as well as its participants' commentaries on it, including W. Colby. Have you?
If you or others want to initiate a Truth Commission and "investigate" the W. Bush Administration, you need to start off by acting in good faith. I have not seen that here. And that is all I have to say about this hysteria.
I predict you will see about as much success as the "Impeach W. Bush now!" mob has enjoyed these last few years. And in any case, B. Obama's treatment of J. Lieberman, H. Clinton, and his reaching out to Republicans strongly suggests that he will not go where you want him to go here.
We need leadership, Bobster, not sensational show-trials. Interesting precedent you would set here: legitimizing an incoming president's persecuting the outgoing administration... |
C'mon Goph, Bush's admin let alone others have ever been far from lily white, what with their renditions of people to other countries for "questioning", plots to kill Castro and what have you. Don't think the US has had their hands in as deep as others--it's the filthy business of running a country--some filthier than others of course, but filthy none the less.
Bush & Co ranks well on the scale.
The naive cheerleader thing really doesn't suit you. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Since 9-11 no attacks on the US, everyone expected there would be.
Every time Baathists, Khomeni followers or Al Qaedists are stopped lives are saved are suffering is stopped. Stopping them from getting their way is justice.
Put that on the record. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Innocent people were tortured to death. That deserves something. |
They won't get the justice they deserve. But it would be nice if they got some justice. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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On the Other Hand: I understand that those pardons, indeed a blanket pardon, is already being written, exactly to nullify this petty, divisive thing that Bobster has in mind.
| canuckistan wrote: |
| C'mon Goph, Bush's admin let alone others have ever been far from lily white... |
Canuckistan: the W. Bush Administration has represented terrible leadership and bad govt on any issue that falls within my own concerns, especially foreign affairs. I can specify: Guant�namo Bay and Iraq.
You misunderstand me when you call me W. Bush's cheerleader. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Canuckistan: tone does not come through by these means, so let me assure you mine is flat, even if my language is direct, here. So I do not ask this rhetorically or confrontationally.
How many of these commission reports (Church, Rockefeller, or, say, the Chileans' Truth and Reconciliation Commisssion) have you read? Do you understand what they are about and why they exist, etc.? |
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