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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| stealth_fighter wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| stealth_fighter wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
While a beautiful country the various religious sects of India don't have a very good track record of containing religious revenge attacks against perceived aggressors.
If I were a muslim anywhere in India right now, I would be shitting bricks. Those Hindus and Sikhs can get downright nasty when push comes to shove. |
The previous president of India was a muslim and he is still a plpular and respected personality and times popular than the current president.
The most respected musician and a role model in the Bollywood(Indian movie industry) is a converted to muslim.
.... can give you number of examples if you are interested.
They are leading a noble life in the same country as role models for the future gen. That is the country in which religious harmony is cherished by everybody alike- Muslims, Hindus, Shiks, Jains and Buddhists. It becomes nasty when of some indoctrinated few cross the border and come back after taking lessons from the hardcore Jihadis. One way the US gave them training and groomed them some years earlier to contain the Russians and today India is paying the price for it. Dont know what impact the "oil war" and WMD search by US is going to have on the future generations. |
Just a little example of those all so peaceful Hindus. Many are saying that this weeks attacks were inspired by this and other events
March 20 2002 - A week of mayhem by Hindu terrorists that erupted on February 27 left at least 700 people officially dead, most of them Muslims, in the western Indian state of Gujarat. Eyewitnesses, including western journalists, have put the death toll at three times this figure, with many deaths from remote villages not being recorded at all. Among the dead were Ahsan Jaffrey, a former Congress party MP, and 19 of his relatives, including several young children. They were doused with kerosene by a Hindu mob and burnt alive after being dragged out of their home in Ahmadabad, the main city of Gujarat. Jaffrey's desperate pleas for help, made on his mobile phone to the police, fell on deaf ears. By March 5 the Hindu-led anarchy had resulted in the destruction of Muslim properties worth at least US$600 million; at least 30 mosques have also been destroyed and turned into makeshift Hindu temples.
The situation elsewhere in Gujarat was little better. The Bharatiya Janata Party government, headed by Narendra Modi, openly encouraged the Hindus to 'exact' revenge on Muslims. In many instances the police looked or joined the killers to 'teach' the Muslims a lesson for their insolence in attacking and setting fire to a train at Godhra that was bringing Hindu volunteers from Ayodhya. Various reports have mentioned the train fire at Godhra, in which 58 Hindus died on February 27, but few have explained what led to the Muslims' seemingly irrational behaviour. However, two reporters - Anil and Neelam Soni, working for the Gujarat Samachar newspaper - have provided detailed accounts of the events that provoked the Muslims' anger.
The trouble started when scores of Hindu militants refused to pay for tea and snacks consumed at a stall on the platform of Godhra railway station. This they had done at other stations along the route as well. At Godhra, an elderly Muslim stall-owner's insistence on being paid enraged the Hindu mob. They started to beat him up, pulling his beard while shouting 'Mandir ka nirmaann karo, Babur ki aulad ko baahar karo' ('start building the temple, throw out the sons of Babur'), a reference to the Hindu campaign to erect a temple on the site of the Babri Mosque, from where the Hindus were returning. Startled by the noise, the stall-owner's 16-year-old daughter rushed out, pleading with the mob to spare her father. The mob seized her and pulled her into a compartment as the train was about to leave. The girl's screams and her father's pleas for help moved two other Muslims, who managed to board the train as it left the station. They pulled the emergency handle, halting the train about a mile away. When the Muslims banged on the carriage where the girl was captive, the Hindus, armed with sticks and chains, descended and started to attack them.
The noise attracted Muslims from the surrounding areas, who started to fight back. Some Muslim youths then ran to get gasoline and diesel from nearby garages in the Signal Fadia area of Godhra, and torched one compartment; a second carriage also caught fire, leading to the deaths of 58 Hindus. When news of the train-attack spread, members of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the group that led the campaign to destroy the Babri Mosque and has vowed to erect a temple on its site (the temple construction date, set for March 15, was postponed as we went to press), ran amok in Godhra. Muslim-owned garages (gas stations) were torched in Signal Fadia, and the Badshah Mosque at Shehra Bhagaad was destroyed. Then Hindu gangs, now thoroughly roused by the Muslims' 'insolence', went about burning them alive wherever they could find them. |
True! To be precise, Narendra Modi, the state Chief minister(equivalent ot Governor in US), and the one who should have saved the people, ordered the Police to keep quiet till the Hindus take the revenge, for "political milage". That is the reason, majority of his fellow countrymen, even those of the same religion, call him as a Terrorist. I dont have any justification for his acts. |
The revenge that (quite a few) Hindus exacted on Sikhs in 1984 (after Indira Gandhi was assassinated) was horrific, and it was done with the complicity of the ruling party and the police. I hope we don't see a repeat of that with more innocents dying simply for being co-religionists of these dispicable killers. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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By no way am I justifying what these animals did in Mumbai over the week but you have to admit there are double standards at play here.
After a rampage of Hindus which left thousands of muslims dead ,in the most gruesome and violent ways, where was the outcry? From what I have read very few Hindus were ever prosecuted. Not hard to believe seeing as the local security officials actually aided the massacre!
Why aren't Hindus the world over despised and feared? The article cited earlier, clearly linked the atrocities with certain religious figures and indoctrinations. I guess in order to fly under the radar of the authorities that be, you only need to terrorize the local population and never, never, ever kill a whitey.
I'm not justifying it but I'm also not going to play the shocked, disbelieving innocent when shit like this goes down. Imagine you are sitting at home one day and 10's of thousands of Hindus ( or whoever ) start running amok. Pulling out any muslim they can find, men, women, elderly, even children, douse them with gasoline, beat them, mutilate them, and finally set them alight. weeks later. There is no international outrage. No serious investigation. No one is brought to justice.
It boggles the mind reading this forum sometimes.
Week 1 "What? some dude raped a little boy? String him up, cut his balls off, torture to death while raping him, that's what he deserves!"
Week 2 "Damn those crazy muslims are murdering bastards. Why do they have to hate some much?"
Why is it so hard to understand that violence begets violence? The weaker group often needing to resort to certain tactics to get their retribution. I try not to distinguish between tactics. Dead is dead.
Last edited by yawarakaijin on Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
By no way am I justifying what these animals did in Mumbai over the week but you have to admit there are double standards at play here.
After a rampage of Hindus which left thousands of muslims dead ,in the most gruesome and violent ways, where was the outcry? From what I have read very few Hindus were ever prosecuted. Not hard to believe seeing as the local security officials actually aided the massacre!
Why aren't Hindus the world over despised and feared? The article cited earlier, clearly linked the atrocities with certain religious figures and indoctrinations. I guess in order to fly under the radar of the authorities that be, you only need to terrorize the local population and never, never, ever kill a whitey. |
Dude, foreigners were being targetted. Not Hindus. *shakes head*
| Quote: |
| It boggles the mind reading this forum sometimes. |
Yes, it truly does. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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So you are telling me that an attack so well planned and targeting ONLY foreigners mananged to kill about what? 20 foreigners out of a total of 300 victims? I understand the majority of deaths happened at a train station, not specifically the hotels where foreigners were staying.
If it was solely to attack Brits and Americas they did a piss poor job of it didn't they? Start shooting up the entire city before they even got to the hotel? Why not just walk up and surround the targets casually, locate the densest numbers of foreigner, take control and then execute their plans? A few well placed bombs in the hotel would have caused many more casualites. Seriously it's horrible and all but if this is all they can come up with after months and months of planning, meh.
Last edited by yawarakaijin on Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:46 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| India could make Pakistan into another Bangladesh. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| By no way am I justifying what these animals did in Mumbai over the week but you have to admit there are double standards at play here... |
You and others here tend to see (and complain about) "double standards" because you prefer to perceive world affairs through idealistic eyes, where "fairness" should exist.
Allow me to disabuse you: world affairs remain uneven and unfair -- just as they always have been. Competing interests remain at play. No one occupies the moral high ground you are seeking.
Which interests do you side with? remains the question you need to address, at least to yourself.
If you claim some Ddeubel-style nonsense about standing above the fray and preaching the greater, universal good, blah, blah, blah, then that only signals to me that you have bought into someone else's (probably Marxist-inspired, as he seems to have started this) propaganda line, hook, line, and sinker. No more no less.
And I sympathize with your pointing out that it is sometimes frustrating reading what people post here and then trying to reason with them. I guess that clash of worldviews is one of the things that keeps us coming back, however... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| India could make Pakistan into another Bangladesh. |
huh? Not getting it. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| By no way am I justifying what these animals did in Mumbai over the week but you have to admit there are double standards at play here... |
You and others here tend to see (and complain about) "double standards" because you prefer to perceive world affairs through idealistic eyes, where "fairness" should exist.
Allow me to disabuse you: world affairs remain uneven and unfair -- just as they always have been. Competing interests remain at play. No one occupies the moral high ground you are seeking.
Which interests do you side with? remains the question you need to address, at least to yourself.
If you claim some Ddeubel-style nonsense about standing above the fray and preaching the greater, universal good, blah, blah, blah, then that only signals to me that you have bought into someone else's (probably Marxist-inspired, as he seems to have started this) propaganda line, hook, line, and sinker. No more no less.
And I sympathize with your pointing out that it is sometimes frustrating reading what people post here and then trying to reason with them. I guess that clash of worldviews is one of the things that keeps us coming back, however... |
I consider myself to be quite practical. Of course I side with the one that ISN'T trying to blow me up.
What I do take issue with however, while remaining entirely cognizant of the true nature of power, is the vilification of a certain group of people.
Throwing ones hands up in the air, "please god please, won't somebody think of the children" type mentalities annoy me to no end.
I realize the nature of power and how western states weild it, primarily for the greater good. Let's not ignore however that that power is often obtained by stepping other's necks occassionally. We might not do it as directly as we used to but one could argue that we are still enabling a lot of regimes that often do not act within the interest of their citizens or their immediate neighbours
Is it so hard to disagree with a groups actions yet aslo see some justification for it, at least in the eyes of those deeming it necessary.
I have yet to be dissuaded that young men become terrorists simply due to the radicalization of any one particular religion. It may be the glue that binds these groups but I would argue that the building blocks are pre-existing.
We have some pretty radical groups here in North America do we not? Some of these groups spout hate and launch some pretty unbelievable diatribes against groups they deem to be blaspheming or corrupting their "american way of life." The difference here in north america is a society that pretty much, for the most part, gives it's citizen far more palatable options than suicide bombing or terrorist reprisals. We are not usually the one held over a barrell.
Reverse the situations and I can pretty much bet you that Christianity would soon become the "religion of terrorists." |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: |
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But it is not reversed and we are not waging terrorist attacks.
And who vilifies them? Perhaps some in the govt, the media, and here. But not me. I merely point out that I have no problem seeing that their interests and worldviews clash with ours to the point where we have fallen into war.
I do not find Islamic extremists evil, Yawarakaijin. But they have called us out as their enemies and they have waged war against us since 1979 and 9/11. And now they have apparently struck again.
Why apologize for them and for this act merely because extremist Hindus exist, too? I have a sneaking suspicion that Hindu extremists did not perpetrate this... |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: |
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You are always a level headed poster and I don't accuse you of villifying them but others do.
The point is that this confrontation didn't germinate out of a void. There are consequences for every action one takes. I wasn't my intention to justify what these people did, merely to provide a backdrop.
It's been argued that this group's intention was to strike at foreigners. The fires are still warm and we only have the interrogation of one man to go on. If this was a strike aimed strictly at western civilians it was pretty poorly planned. Why didn't they send the team to a European city where they could gaurantee a much higher casualty rate? I think this was an attack on the Idian state. They hit the newly burgeoning economic centre of Mumbai and the targeting of westerns, I believe, was aimed at driving away investment. If they really only wanted to kill westerners there are far, far more tempting targets.
But that is our ethnocentricity isn't it? What you say? Eighteen westerners were targeted and killed in Mumbai? It must be because they hate our freedoms. All the while utterly and completely ignoring some of the serious issues of Indian society. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Terrorism has rocked Indian society since the independence era. It worsened during the partition when Hindus and Muslims attempted to annihilate each other communally. Now they represent two entrenched, nuclear-armed nation-states -- and I have a bad feeling that it just go worse.
I agree that we should not be so quick to interpret this as something directed toward American and/or British audiences. But it does seem that the handwriting is on the wall as far as where this likely came from: this cell's training and capabilities and the dramatic style of its well-coordinated attack all seem to scream "al Qaeda" or at least something copycat-like. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Last I heard, the group that the surviving terrorist claims to represent denied any responsibility in the attack. That surely isn't a sign of Al-qaeda. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
It's been argued that this group's intention was to strike at foreigners. The fires are still warm and we only have the interrogation of one man to go on. If this was a strike aimed strictly at western civilians it was pretty poorly planned. Why didn't they send the team to a European city where they could gaurantee a much higher casualty rate? I think this was an attack on the Idian state. They hit the newly burgeoning economic centre of Mumbai and the targeting of westerns, I believe, was aimed at driving away investment. If they really only wanted to kill westerners there are far, far more tempting targets. |
Why does it have to be either/or?
They were targetting foreigners to hurt India's tourism industry. There may be other motives, but I think that one is pretty clear. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
By no way am I justifying what these animals did in Mumbai over the week but you have to admit there are double standards at play here.
After a rampage of Hindus which left thousands of muslims dead ,in the most gruesome and violent ways, where was the outcry? From what I have read very few Hindus were ever prosecuted. Not hard to believe seeing as the local security officials actually aided the massacre!
Why aren't Hindus the world over despised and feared? The article cited earlier, clearly linked the atrocities with certain religious figures and indoctrinations. I guess in order to fly under the radar of the authorities that be, you only need to terrorize the local population and never, never, ever kill a whitey.
I'm not justifying it but I'm also not going to play the shocked, disbelieving innocent when shit like this goes down. Imagine you are sitting at home one day and 10's of thousands of Hindus ( or whoever ) start running amok. Pulling out any muslim they can find, men, women, elderly, even children, douse them with gasoline, beat them, mutilate them, and finally set them alight. weeks later. There is no international outrage. No serious investigation. No one is brought to justice.
It boggles the mind reading this forum sometimes.
Week 1 "What? some dude raped a little boy? String him up, cut his balls off, torture to death while raping him, that's what he deserves!"
Week 2 "Damn those crazy muslims are murdering bastards. Why do they have to hate some much?"
Why is it so hard to understand that violence begets violence? The weaker group often needing to resort to certain tactics to get their retribution. I try not to distinguish between tactics. Dead is dead. |
Actually, Hindu extremists have murdered whiteys. For example, I recall them murdering a white Christian missionary and his two small sons in the most gruesome way a few years back. But I know what you mean. Hindu extremists have been responsible for some revolting attrocities on a regular basis, but so many on this forum come here declaring silly stuff like 'why is that terrorists always muslims?' and only getting upset about muslim attrocites. I find it kind of weird when you consider that most here have at least a bachelor degree. Reading some of the crap on this forum over the years you'd think that only muslims were terrorists, and that indeed all muslims were in fact terrorists. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hindu extremists assassinated M. Gandhi, too. But the point is Islamic extremism derives from a religion bent on conquest that keeps insisting on reaching out and touching the rest of us, via aircraft hijackings, 9/11, Madrid, London, and now Mumbai.
How can you ignore the pattern this presents? |
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