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Dharma_Blue
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| If I had this visa right now, I'd be singing Korean pop songs for 10,000 won an hour at the Hongdae KT booth, doing Friday shifts at an American restaurant in Itaewon, and working at a foreigner guesthouse and maybe be doing some web design. |
Why do you have to live in Korea to sing pop songs, wait tables, do web design, and work in a hostel for close to minimum wage?? |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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from here:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2008/sept/110083.htm
The WEST (Work, English Study, Travel) Program
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan of the Republic of Korea signed a Memorandum of Understanding on the WEST (Work, English Study, Travel) Program and expansion of other reciprocal exchange opportunities on September 22 in New York. During their most recent summit in August 2008, President George W. Bush and President Lee Myung-bak of the Republic of Korea discussed plans to create new bilateral opportunities for young Americans and Koreans to learn about each other�s country by working, studying, and traveling abroad. The WEST Memorandum of Understanding is the result.
The WEST program is an innovative exchange program that will allow up to 5,000 qualifying university students and recent university graduates from the Republic of Korea to enter the United States for a period of 18 months on J-1 exchange visitor visas that will allow them to study English, participate in internships, and travel independently. Participants will devote at least 450 classroom hours to structured English language training and coursework focusing on American business practices and business procedures, U.S. corporate culture, and general office management issues. The program will be coordinated by the private sector under the auspices of the United States Department of State�s Bureau of Education and Cultural Affairs. This program will be launched in 2009.
The Government of the Republic of Korea intends to establish an eighteen-month Working Holiday Program (WHP) under which participants from the United States can pursue work, study, and travel opportunities in Korea.
The WEST program and its governing Memorandum of Understanding reflects the future-oriented nature of the U.S. � Korea alliance by providing students from the United States and the Republic of Korea with a unique opportunity to develop foreign language skills while gaining professional experience in the international work place. This program will enable the American and Korean people to share their values while increasing their international understanding. As President Bush said in Seoul, �I believe the best foreign policy for America is for people to get to know our country firsthand.�
Authority for the Exchange Visitor Program derives from the Mutual Educational and Cultural Exchange Act of 1961, also known as the Fulbright-Hays Act The purpose of this act is to increase mutual understanding between the people of the United States and the people of other countries through educational and cultural exchanges.
2008/755
not the words in bold. note the words "intends to establish."
how many here think that will ever happen or that this program was launched in good faith on the K's side to fulfill their side of the agreement?
and who thinks when all was said and done that anyone ever even imagined Americans would want to come to K and work visa-free anyway?
I see this as another aspect of Bush's attempt to circumvent immigration reform and instead open the floodgates for free labor - non-paid "internships" by univ students AND graduates. Why on earth should someone already graduated be in an internship? Good schools establish internships as part of their curriculum, often as a requirement for graduation.
it's also quite possibly meant to grease the wheels a bit because so many Ks want the U.S. military out of K - so there has to be a lot of groveling and offers on the table in order to quiet down the dissent.
finally - doesn't it strike anyone else as odd that the President of a country would actually promote his own citizens going abroad to study, even work? it seems like if anyone would be ringing the nationalist bell it would be a president - at least to the tune of "our universities are excellent institutions and we are continuing to improve them to make them competitive." ??
what's wrong with this picture here? |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Dharma_Blue wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| If I had this visa right now, I'd be singing Korean pop songs for 10,000 won an hour at the Hongdae KT booth, doing Friday shifts at an American restaurant in Itaewon, and working at a foreigner guesthouse and maybe be doing some web design. |
Why do you have to live in Korea to sing pop songs, wait tables, do web design, and work in a hostel for close to minimum wage?? |
Sure, I could do those things in the US, but then it wouldn't be bragworthy. The keyword here is bragworthy. And the key phrase is "THINK OF THE STORIES YOU'D BE ABLE TO TELL!" 
It's great to hold forth to American friends with tales of going to North Korea, being locked in a Chinese air force base, spending the night in Gwanghwamun Police Station, or dating a 39-year-old Korean businesswoman.
Similarly, "I used to work the graveyard shift at a Korean 7-Eleven in Shinchon" is bragworthy. Because no white guy has probably ever done that before.
Working at a hagwon? Everyone and their little brother has done that, BORING! However, "I used to sing Korean pop songs for 10,000 won an hour" is something you can tell your grand kids. See where I'm coming from?
We're making peanuts here anyway, now, so we might as well be accumulating some fascinating tales to tell down the road of life. The $500 the average English teacher here is saving every month will be gone before we know it -- but the stories will be immortal! |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| you really are desperate, aren't you |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| you really are desperate, aren't you |
Desperate for money? Well, a little bit, but I don't need WH to fix that. Desperate for bragworthy stories that I can retell for decades and entertain all those around me? Yep, I'm pretty desperate for those, and proud of it! |
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Neil
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I think you picked the wrong place to find a non teaching job. In the 4 years I spent in Korea the foreigners were:
English teachers
US military
Guys with a qualification in engineering/IT ect who had been hired outside of Korea
Students
Mormon missionaries
Out of the hundreds of waegukins I've drank with I've met 2 who have got good jobs through their Korean language ability. Thing is there's 50 million people in Korea who speak it better than you and Koreans ain't spending millions of dollars a year on English education so they can chat with weagukins in Korean.
Shanghai or Tokyo with their liberal visa laws and piss poor English ability, those are cities where you would clean up if you spoke the lingo.
It does raise a point (the whole 7/11 thing) if Korea wants to promote its language allowing non Koreans to do menial jobs would be a good start, man...in London there's so many Poles behind the bar, they don't speak perfect English but enough to get by and over time they improve. A buddy of mine in Japan works as an English teacher by day and at night pulls pints in an Izakaya.....she earns a pittance for her PT job but thinking long term she probably learns more Japanese in a night than some spoilt brat studying full time in a uni learns in a month.
Anyway good luck. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| you really are desperate, aren't you |
Desperate for money? Well, a little bit, but I don't need WH to fix that. Desperate for bragworthy stories that I can retell for decades and entertain all those around me? Yep, I'm pretty desperate for those, and proud of it! |
Dude you are likely to be sadly mistaken if you think anybody back home would care all that much at least after the 5th time you begin to tell a story with the words "When I was in Korea..."
People on the whole don't care for a story to which they can't relate. There are people on this very site who "been there, done that", and they really don't get that much reactions from their friends back home beyond a "Oh really that's interesting" or a smile. And after the first 20 times or so, people really don't care as they have their own interesting stories to relate and things to do. Besides which Korea's own reciperal program isn't even off the ground yet...it could be years.
And weren't you all enthused about that TALK program...aren't you in it? |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Neil wrote: |
I think you picked the wrong place to find a non teaching job. In the 4 years I spent in Korea the foreigners were:
English teachers
US military
Guys with a qualification in engineering/IT ect who had been hired outside of Korea
Students
Mormon missionaries
Out of the hundreds of waegukins I've drank with I've met 2 who have got good jobs through their Korean language ability. Thing is there's 50 million people in Korea who speak it better than you and Koreans ain't spending millions of dollars a year on English education so they can chat with weagukins in Korean.
Shanghai or Tokyo with their liberal visa laws and piss poor English ability, those are cities where you would clean up if you spoke the lingo.
It does raise a point (the whole 7/11 thing) if Korea wants to promote its language allowing non Koreans to do menial jobs would be a good start, man...in London there's so many Poles behind the bar, they don't speak perfect English but enough to get by and over time they improve. A buddy of mine in Japan works as an English teacher by day and at night pulls pints in an Izakaya.....she earns a pittance for her PT job but thinking long term she probably learns more Japanese in a night than some spoilt brat studying full time in a uni learns in a month.
Anyway good luck. |
I think the reason people only do the five jobs you mentioned (and that is true, nearly everyone fits into those categories unless they're illegal) is because the visa laws are currently so strict, people can't get clearance to do anything else. If the WEST Program goes into effect, foreigners could do other things too. As I have already said, my Japanese friend managed to prove herself well enough on her Working Holiday at a dentist's office that her boss is getting her a visa at said dentist's office. If she hadn't had this pre-clearance through WH first, this would have been impossible. Now that Americans *might* be eligible for WH, Americans could do this too. I doubt very many will, but for Americans interested in Korea, this is a very intriguing idea, indeed. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| you really are desperate, aren't you |
Desperate for money? Well, a little bit, but I don't need WH to fix that. Desperate for bragworthy stories that I can retell for decades and entertain all those around me? Yep, I'm pretty desperate for those, and proud of it! |
Dude you are likely to be sadly mistaken if you think anybody back home would care all that much at least after the 5th time you begin to tell a story with the words "When I was in Korea..."
People on the whole don't care for a story to which they can't relate. There are people on this very site who "been there, done that", and they really don't get that much reactions from their friends back home beyond a "Oh really that's interesting" or a smile. And after the first 20 times or so, people really don't care as they have their own interesting stories to relate and things to do. Besides which Korea's own reciperal program isn't even off the ground yet...it could be years.
And weren't you all enthused about that TALK program...aren't you in it? |
Actually, I know they do care, because I run an extensive website and get praise from people I've never met on nearly a daily basis. On rare occasion, I even get stopped in the street by random foreigners who recognize me from the pictures on my site. It's very gratifying.
People are more interested to hear your stories if they aren't always about "that time at the hagwon." And if people can't relate to your Korea experiences, maybe you should find new friends back home who also have overseas experience. They'll care a lot more.
I was enthused about the TaLK program, you're right. I'm not in it (quite frankly GEPIK looks much better for AA-holding foreigners right now, in terms of salary), but just like the WEST Program, I am in favor of most visa changes that makes more foreigners eligible to work here, and in more sectors. It's good for both Korea and people who are interested in Korea. This business of "you have to have a BA to work here, and even then, you can only work in one designated sector" has always annoyed me, and ever since 노무현 left office and 이명박 took office, things have been looking better and better for foreigners (except for exchange rate). I applaud Korea's direction with this year's visa relaxations and possible new types of visas. It's no where near as open as a western country yet, but these are good first steps.
Personally, I find it amazing how many foreigners on this site oppose visa changes that would give themselves more privileges. Considering the WEST Program would allow us to own our own visas for 1.5 years, which is an improvement over the E-2, I'd think more people would be strongly in favor of this visa plan. However, everyone would rather say "no, I'd rather not have the right to change my job without leaving the country." That's so strange. I've seldom encountered a group of people who wished they had FEWER rights. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| I think the reason people only do the five jobs you mentioned (and that is true, nearly everyone fits into those categories unless they're illegal) is because the visa laws are currently so strict, people can't get clearance to do anything else. |
What about F Visa holders? If strict visa requirements were what hinderd people into getting other jobs, then F Visa holders should be able to find other jobs.
The best paying jobs for foreigners is teaching English. Working any other job isn't going to provide housing either. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| I think the reason people only do the five jobs you mentioned (and that is true, nearly everyone fits into those categories unless they're illegal) is because the visa laws are currently so strict, people can't get clearance to do anything else. |
What about F Visa holders? If strict visa requirements were what hinderd people into getting other jobs, then F Visa holders should be able to find other jobs.
The best paying jobs for foreigners is teaching English. Working any other job isn't going to provide housing either. |
True, it's the best-paying job, but some people choose jobs for reasons other than them paying a lot of money.
My Japanese dental nurse friend makes less than 1,000,000 won a month (WITHOUT housing) without complaint about the pay because she loves her profession and believes she is learning new techniques and ways of doing her profession that she would not be learning in Japan. Japanese is, after English, probably the second most studied language in Korea and she could probably teach Japanese for much more money, but she'd rather take less pay and do what she loves, which is dentistry-related. She views it as a way to better herself. Sure, she could work in Japan making three times as much and visit Korea several times a year, but for her, it's the experience that's more important than the money.
Korea actually does have some cutting-edge industries from which us foreigners (yes, even us mighty Americans) can learn a lot. For example, I've never seen a web design industry as good as Korea's, not in any country on earth. A web designer would be bettering himself or herself to study web design here.
Similarly, Korea has a red-hot computer games industry which is far ahead of most countries. So a game programmer would probably love being on the cutting edge here, and be willing to take a pay cut just to be at the epicenter.
In any of the industries I've just mentioned, I'm sure a foreigner with sufficient Korean could get a job in them, even if they were mainly hired for their international skills (English communication and knowledge of western business etiquette). The trouble is that it is a difficult decision for a business to make to sponsor the visa of someone who hasn't proven themself yet. However, the Working Holiday visas allow such a person to prove themself. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| you really are desperate, aren't you |
Desperate for money? Well, a little bit, but I don't need WH to fix that. Desperate for bragworthy stories that I can retell for decades and entertain all those around me? Yep, I'm pretty desperate for those, and proud of it! |
Dude you are likely to be sadly mistaken if you think anybody back home would care all that much at least after the 5th time you begin to tell a story with the words "When I was in Korea..."
People on the whole don't care for a story to which they can't relate. There are people on this very site who "been there, done that", and they really don't get that much reactions from their friends back home beyond a "Oh really that's interesting" or a smile. And after the first 20 times or so, people really don't care as they have their own interesting stories to relate and things to do. Besides which Korea's own reciperal program isn't even off the ground yet...it could be years.
And weren't you all enthused about that TALK program...aren't you in it? |
Actually, I know they do care, because I run an extensive website and get praise from people I've never met on nearly a daily basis. On rare occasion, I even get stopped in the street by random foreigners who recognize me from the pictures on my site. It's very gratifying.
Then you're expectional. And if this website of yours is so good...how about letting us have a peek?
People are more interested to hear your stories if they aren't always about "that time at the hagwon." And if people can't relate to your Korea experiences, maybe you should find new friends back home who also have overseas experience. They'll care a lot more.
I was enthused about the TaLK program, you're right. I'm not in it (quite frankly GEPIK looks much better for AA-holding foreigners right now, in terms of salary), but just like the WEST Program, I am in favor of most visa changes that makes more foreigners eligible to work here, and in more sectors. It's good for both Korea and people who are interested in Korea. This business of "you have to have a BA to work here, and even then, you can only work in one designated sector" has always annoyed me, and ever since 노무현 left office and 이명박 took office, things have been looking better and better for foreigners (except for exchange rate). I applaud Korea's direction with this year's visa relaxations and possible new types of visas. It's no where near as open as a western country yet, but these are good first steps.
Personally, I find it amazing how many foreigners on this site oppose visa changes that would give themselves more privileges. Considering the WEST Program would allow us to own our own visas for 1.5 years, which is an improvement over the E-2, I'd think more people would be strongly in favor of this visa plan. However, everyone would rather say "no, I'd rather not have the right to change my job without leaving the country." That's so strange. I've seldom encountered a group of people who wished they had FEWER rights. |
FEWER rights? What are you on about? FYI, the WEST program is for UNIVERSITY STUDENTS AND/OR RECENT GRADUATES. And it's only for AMERICANS. Most regulars on these forums are NEITHER, so it's absolutely irrelevent to them.
In other words the WEST program offers absolutely no benefits to them so why should they care? |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| moosehead wrote: |
| you really are desperate, aren't you |
Desperate for money? Well, a little bit, but I don't need WH to fix that. Desperate for bragworthy stories that I can retell for decades and entertain all those around me? Yep, I'm pretty desperate for those, and proud of it! |
Dude you are likely to be sadly mistaken if you think anybody back home would care all that much at least after the 5th time you begin to tell a story with the words "When I was in Korea..."
People on the whole don't care for a story to which they can't relate. There are people on this very site who "been there, done that", and they really don't get that much reactions from their friends back home beyond a "Oh really that's interesting" or a smile. And after the first 20 times or so, people really don't care as they have their own interesting stories to relate and things to do. Besides which Korea's own reciperal program isn't even off the ground yet...it could be years.
And weren't you all enthused about that TALK program...aren't you in it? |
Actually, I know they do care, because I run an extensive website and get praise from people I've never met on nearly a daily basis. On rare occasion, I even get stopped in the street by random foreigners who recognize me from the pictures on my site. It's very gratifying.
Then you're expectional. And if this website of yours is so good...how about letting us have a peek?
People are more interested to hear your stories if they aren't always about "that time at the hagwon." And if people can't relate to your Korea experiences, maybe you should find new friends back home who also have overseas experience. They'll care a lot more.
I was enthused about the TaLK program, you're right. I'm not in it (quite frankly GEPIK looks much better for AA-holding foreigners right now, in terms of salary), but just like the WEST Program, I am in favor of most visa changes that makes more foreigners eligible to work here, and in more sectors. It's good for both Korea and people who are interested in Korea. This business of "you have to have a BA to work here, and even then, you can only work in one designated sector" has always annoyed me, and ever since 노무현 left office and 이명박 took office, things have been looking better and better for foreigners (except for exchange rate). I applaud Korea's direction with this year's visa relaxations and possible new types of visas. It's no where near as open as a western country yet, but these are good first steps.
Personally, I find it amazing how many foreigners on this site oppose visa changes that would give themselves more privileges. Considering the WEST Program would allow us to own our own visas for 1.5 years, which is an improvement over the E-2, I'd think more people would be strongly in favor of this visa plan. However, everyone would rather say "no, I'd rather not have the right to change my job without leaving the country." That's so strange. I've seldom encountered a group of people who wished they had FEWER rights. |
FEWER rights? What are you on about? FYI, the WEST program is for UNIVERSITY STUDENTS AND/OR RECENT GRADUATES. And it's only for AMERICANS. Most regulars on these forums are NEITHER, so it's absolutely irrelevent to them.
In other words the WEST program offers absolutely no benefits to them so why should they care? |
They shouldn't care if it doesn't pertain to them. I don't see why they'd want to oppose it, though. |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| rooster_2006 wrote: |
| I think the reason people only do the five jobs you mentioned (and that is true, nearly everyone fits into those categories unless they're illegal) is because the visa laws are currently so strict, people can't get clearance to do anything else. |
What about F Visa holders? If strict visa requirements were what hinderd people into getting other jobs, then F Visa holders should be able to find other jobs.
The best paying jobs for foreigners is teaching English. Working any other job isn't going to provide housing either. |
True, it's the best-paying job, but some people choose jobs for reasons other than them paying a lot of money.
My Japanese dental nurse friend makes less than 1,000,000 won a month (WITHOUT housing) without complaint about the pay because she loves her profession and believes she is learning new techniques and ways of doing her profession that she would not be learning in Japan. Japanese is, after English, probably the second most studied language in Korea and she could probably teach Japanese for much more money, but she'd rather take less pay and do what she loves, which is dentistry-related. She views it as a way to better herself. Sure, she could work in Japan making three times as much and visit Korea several times a year, but for her, it's the experience that's more important than the money.
Korea actually does have some cutting-edge industries from which us foreigners (yes, even us mighty Americans) can learn a lot. For example, I've never seen a web design industry as good as Korea's, not in any country on earth. A web designer would be bettering himself or herself to study web design here.
Similarly, Korea has a red-hot computer games industry which is far ahead of most countries. So a game programmer would probably love being on the cutting edge here, and be willing to take a pay cut just to be at the epicenter.
In any of the industries I've just mentioned, I'm sure a foreigner with sufficient Korean could get a job in them, even if they were mainly hired for their international skills (English communication and knowledge of western business etiquette). The trouble is that it is a difficult decision for a business to make to sponsor the visa of someone who hasn't proven themself yet. However, the Working Holiday visas allow such a person to prove themself. |
Not really,...I like your positive attitude, but korea is far from a leader in web design and game design....Korean gaming is tethered to PC gaming which is slowly dying out in the west compared to console games. They need to make more xbox and wii games...and less mmorpgs.
However they making excellent progress in Stem cell research and have some excellent product design. Korea well known for a variety of hi-tech companies and manufacturing....I also personally really like their graphic design and interior design....infact I really like they're art...it's not really original, but it's definately cool.... |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sojourner1 wrote: |
Working holidays are geared at young adults which the article is talking about. Normally it's for people under 30 to go wait tables like they can in Australia for something like 4 periods of 3 month employment stints while Korea is taking a more liberal approach to it than common wealth and European countries do.
I like the idea of Korea helping its' graduates out with a finance program to help university graduates who suffer from low credit rating because of their inability to pay back tuition loans. Korea is acknowledging what's been a huge problem in America for 8 years now. They know that low credit rating makes graduates unemployable at a level they went to school for. This is a worldwide epidemic in developed counties as well as high unemployment of young adults and graduates. If employed, they're usually underemployed in a lower paying job just to survive that relates nothing to their studies, ambitions, and purpose in life.
Presidents can address these employment problems, but it's going to boil down to starting massive public works projects to employ them while upgrading infrastructure to jump start the economy. The private sector just isn't going to offer opportunities. In the US, they're already talking about doing this as well as increasing diplomats to work abroad. I hope the government employs and trains people to go in as management teams to fix banks and companies. I smell possible interesting good jobs in the future. |
Ummm...no?
I have a rather large loan and my credit rating stayed fairly consistent at 725 where is started....I used credit regularly and always pay off the full balance each month.
Is it always doom and gloom with you? |
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