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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Ouch!
Court: No review of Obama's eligibility to serve
Mon Dec 8, 6:10 pm ET
WASHINGTON � The Supreme Court has turned down an emergency appeal from a New Jersey man who says President-elect Barack Obama is ineligible to be president because he was a British subject at birth. The court did not comment on its order Monday rejecting the call by Leo Donofrio of East Brunswick, N.J., to intervene in the presidential election.
Donofrio says that since Obama had dual nationality at birth � his mother was American and his Kenyan father at the time was a British subject � he cannot possibly be a "natural born citizen," one of the requirements the Constitution lists for eligibility to be president.
Donofrio also contends that two other candidates, Republican John McCain and Socialist Workers candidate Roger Calero, also are not natural-born citizens and thus ineligible to be president.
At least one other appeal over Obama's citizenship remains at the court. Philip J. Berg of Lafayette Hill, Pa., argues that Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii as Obama says and Hawaii officials have confirmed.
Berg says Obama also may be a citizen of Indonesia, where he lived as a boy. Federal courts in Pennsylvania have dismissed Berg's lawsuit. Federal courts in Ohio and Washington state have rejected similar lawsuits.
Allegations raised on the Internet say the birth certificate, showing that Obama was born in Hawaii on Aug. 4, 1961, is a fake.
But Hawaii Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino and the state's registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, say they checked health department records and have determined there's no doubt Obama was born in Hawaii.
The nonpartisan Web site Factcheck.org examined the original document and said it does have a raised seal and the usual evidence of a genuine document.
In addition, Factcheck.org reproduced an announcement of Obama's birth, including his parents' address in Honolulu, that was published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Aug. 13, 1961.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_obama/print |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
1. Doesn't really matter, though, as the man is a native-born US citizen. His mother was a citizen at the time of his birth.
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Yep. Who cares about the birth certificate? Doesn't matter where he was born since his mother is American. Or are you doubting she is his biological mother too?  |
I really don't think motherhood constitutes natural born,
I believe there is a geographic component to the validity. |
exactly, but obviously the "I got a crush on Obama" crowd doesn't want to accept. Obama has to be born in the US. Exactly why John was challenged, he was born out of the country even though that both of his parents were American.
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| ..plus fiveeages is a canadian... |
Who cares. I am a north american and affected more by american politics than canadian politics. Who really has any sovereignity anymore?
Anyway, it's all mute now. The supreme court didn't even look at it.
If Obama is of another nationality, this will now set a precedent and will allow any nationality to be a president. Maybe that's a good thing. I will announce when I am running right here on Daves. |
| Jandar wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
I guess it is "mute" then.
Obama will be president for 4 years for sure and then possibly 4 more. These little theories will not change that. Move on and find a new angle. |
The word is moot. Mute is like unable to speak or some such. |
Clearly, I was making fun of eagles. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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From Ballot Access News:
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Why All Lawsuits on Obama Eligibility Are Misguided
December 7th, 2008
The arguments made by people who believe that Barack Obama is not a �natural born citizen� are sometimes very thoughtful and scholarly. For example, see Leo Donofrio�s blog, http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com. Donofrio has discovered that President Chester Alan Arthur, who probably was born in Vermont, but whose father was not a U.S. citizen, went through the naturalization process. Apparently Arthur�s naturalization process was not known to the public during Arthur�s campaign for vice-president in 1880, nor during his presidency.
Nevertheless, the lawsuits trying to stop the electors from voting for Obama on December 15 lack merit. The U.S. Constitution gives the presidential electors full power to vote for anyone they wish, whether the people they vote for are eligible or not. And no one argues that any presidential elector chosen last month, in any state, is not eligible. The only restriction the U.S. Constitution places on electors is that they not vote for two residents (for president and for vice-president) who live in the state that the elector lives in. Furthermore, the U.S. Constitution does not even require a presidential elector to take an oath to support the Constitution. Some states, however, do require such an oath.
The only constitutional remedy to prevent someone from taking the office of President or Vice President, is by Congressional action. Congress is charged with counting the electoral votes in January. Congress is free to reject an electoral vote if Congress believes that electoral vote was cast for someone who is not qualified. This precedent was set in 1873, when Congress refused to count the 3 electoral votes cast for Horace Greeley, who had died after the November 1872 election but before the electors met in December 1872.
Somewhat by analogy, Congress, not any court, has the authority to judge election returns for members of Congress, and to make up its own mind as to whether the election returns announced by state elections officials are accurate or not.
Some states openly place presidential candidates on the ballot even though those presidential candidates freely admit that they do not meet the constitutional qualifications to be president. Other states do not. This is illustrated by the fact that the Socialist Workers Party, which several times has nominated presidential candidates who do not meet the qualifications, has placed such candidates on the ballot in Arizona, Colorado, Delaware, Idaho, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, and Washington. Also, California accepted such a candidate as a declared write-in candidate.
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It is up to Congress to decide if Obama is eligible to be President under the US Constitution. Whether or not he is eligible, whatever his citizenship status is, it is not up to the Courts to decide. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| SeoulFinn wrote: |
Everyone knows that Obama's mother was an American citizen. But what about the father? If Obama was born in Kenya to a Kenyan father and a foreign woman, doesn't that make him a natural born Kenyan citizen?
This is what really gets to me. Why should the American law, Constitution and courts have precedence over their Kenyan counterparts? Why? Because America is the boss of all of us? I'm not flaming here, just wondering aloud. |
Why would Kenya have jurisdiction over events that happened in Hawaii? Can you show us ANYTHING that would indicate that Obama's mother had Obama in Kenya?
| SeoulFinn wrote: |
| Because America is the boss of all of us? I'm not flaming here, just wondering aloud. |
Stop wondering out loud. You're embarassing yourself. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think most Americans agree that a child born to any citizen anywhere in the world is a natural born citizen.
I think most Americans agree that a child born with one parent of another nationality accept the child as having dual citizenship until the age of majority when the kid can choose.
It's purely anecdotal, but not one single person I've talked to about this disagrees with the 2 statements above.
The controversial part of the citizenship thing is that a foreign woman can deliberately come to the US to have her baby in order to claim citizenship for the kid. Many people disagree with that, but it is not part of this particular discussion.
It's too bad the Justices didn't explain why they refused to hear the case. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Why would Kenya have jurisdiction over events that happened in Hawaii? Can you show us ANYTHING that would indicate that Obama's mother had Obama in Kenya? |
Obama's mother could have given birth to him on the moon and he'd still be a US citizen because she was, or if his father had been. Just the way it works with a lot of western countries.
I've gotten Canadian citizenship for our kids and so far they've never even set foot in Canada. |
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mnhnhyouh
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the nutcases that believe in this "born in Kenya" stuff must also think that the Republican Party are also in on this. Otherwise they would be all over it, wouldnt they?
Sheesh.
h |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
A side trip, if you will, into the issue of dual nationality: not all instances of dual nationality are the individual's choice. I submit to you as one example the case of foreign women who marry Iranian men and thus are considered by Iran to be Iranian citizens.
It's ridiculous to condemn someone for a dual nationality which has been forced on them without their knowledge or without their will. |
I believe the case of born to American parents in an overseas situation does not constitute "Natural Born" except in the case of members of the Armed services and employees of the US government during a tour of service in another country. |
Well, you believe wrong. It doesn't matter if the US citizen parent is in the Armed Forces/employee of the US government or not.
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| Now I have nothing to back it up it is coming off the top of my head as they say, so if you have some other information to the contrary please share. |
Feel free to check the US Code that's been plastered all over the 'net in response to the whack-jobs saying Obama's not a US citizen.
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But here I give you an excerpt from the 14th amendment:
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the Jurisdiction thereof, are Citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. . ."
I think the UCMJ is considered a Jurisdiction. |
It's not. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is a code of US federal law under which the US military has jurisdiction over certain individuals regardless of their location.
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| (on another note would "natural born" extend to artificial concieved persons or testube or cloned) |
Of course. The term "natural born" is used to differentiate from someone who obtained US citizenship via naturalization.
And with that, I'm done responding to you. |
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SeoulFinn
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
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Kuros:
Thank you for setting me right. I was embarrassing myself with my mere speculation "If Obama was born in Kenya to a Kenyan father and a foreign woman" drivel. Thank you, sir/madam, for correcting me in such a mature and constructive way. From now on I will not wonder anything aloud nor make any questions even if my life depended on it, as I would surely embarrass myself even further. Thank you, Kuros, you are the best!
Humbly Yours, SeoulFinn
PS. I do not give a rat's ass where Obama was born. I just find it strange that his grandmother said(?) that Obama was born in Kenya. I would think that a grandmother would know where her grandson was born. Of course this claim could be a lie as Internet is full of lies. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| SeoulFinn wrote: |
| PS. I do not give a rat's ass where Obama was born. I just find it strange that his grandmother said(?) that Obama was born in Kenya. I would think that a grandmother would know where her grandson was born. Of course this claim could be a lie as Internet is full of lies. |
Links?
This is a new one...I've never heard it from any source that I've viewed, but I usually just read legit sources though...(I'm not a fringer in either direction).
Any links to that particular claim - 'Obama's grandmother claims he was born in Kenya', even if its another oddball loon fringe group like the ones that fiveeages reads...just curious where this stuff comes from. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| If Obama's grandmother really did say that, the reporter should have asked her about the reasons that Mr. and Mrs. Obama decided to make the arduous trek all the way back to Kenya to give birth. Surely she would have had some insight into their motivation. |
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The_Source
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
I believe the case of born to American parents in an overseas situation does not constitute "Natural Born" except in the case of members of the Armed services and employees of the US government during a tour of service in another country.
Now I have nothing to back it up it is coming off the top of my head as they say, so if you have some other information to the contrary please share.
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INA 301(g)
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Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
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(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| If Obama's grandmother really did say that, the reporter should have asked her about the reasons that Mr. and Mrs. Obama decided to make the arduous trek all the way back to Kenya to give birth. Surely she would have had some insight into their motivation. |
Agreed.
Plus, where did Obama's Father get the thousands of dollars needed to fly himself and pregnant-about-to-give-birth girlfriend from Hawaii to Africa in the 1960's on his student scholarship. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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VDare, an anti-immigration website that skirts the edge of respectablity on racial issues, and is decidedly anti-Obama, has a smackdown of the "He's really a Kenyan" hypothesis...
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SIDEBAR: re: VDARE
It appears that VDARE does more than 'skirts the edge of respectability on racial issues'. I was reading an article about 'Who Started the War on Christmas' when I ran across VDare's name and was reminded of your post. In the estimate of the writer of this article, VDare is a thoroughly despicable group:
The shift at National Review forced Brimelow even further into the political wilderness. Shunned by conservatives there rankled by his unabashed racial resentment�Goldberg belittled him in a 2002 column as a �once respected conservative voice��Brimelow founded what would become the internet�s leading anti-immigration web journal, VDare.com, named for the first British child born in the Americas. Brimelow�s new venture provided a forum to allies like Jared Taylor, a white supremacist publisher, and Kevin MacDonald, an evolutionary psychology professor who has argued that Jews are genetically equipped to out-compete Gentiles for resources and power. In 2003, four years after VDare�s founding, the Southern Poverty Law Center classified the journal as a �hate group.�
VDare became the staging ground for the War on the War on Christmas. Unlike their more respectable counterparts, Brimelow�s writers dared to name the true anti-Christian Grinch: Jews...
VDare�s 2005 War on Christmas winner, Steve Sailer, a Eugenics enthusiast and author of the new biography of Barack Obama, America�s Half-Blood Prince, picked up where Piatak left off.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-12-09/who-started-the-war-on-christmas/ |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: |
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It appears that VDARE does more than 'skirts the edge of respectability on racial issues'. I was reading an article about 'Who Started the War on Christmas' when I ran across VDare's name and was reminded of your post. In the estimate of the writer of this article, VDare is a thoroughly despicable group:
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Point taken. Though I will say that the framework for what constitutes "respectability" is not neccessarily defined by me. VDare counts among its willing contributors Michelle Malkin, a respectable enough commentator on the American right, and Paul Craig Roberts, who worked for Reagan and also writes for Counterpunch, a left-wing on-line journal published by a guy who writes for the generally respectable Nation magazine.
As well, Steve Sailer used to write a column that was published in Canada by the National Post, owned at the time by Conrad Black, who also owned the Chicago Sun-Times and is close enough to the circles of power to be regarded as a canddate for pardon by the outgoing president.
And you may recall, in the early 90s, The Bell Curve being treated as a source of legitimate debate by Newsweek and other publications.
So, I would say that, within the parameters of respectability laid down by the mainstream North American media, VDARE has at least a toe in the door. And in any case, my main reason for posting the Sailer piece was that it was the best explication I've seen so far of why Obama's being born in Kenya is such an implausible idea. |
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