Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ryoga013]

For those of you that try to reason with some of the locals and feel frustrated that your attempts seem to be thwarted by some type of shielding mechanism, I came across this quote last night and I think it may help explain it:

"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." Ayn Rand


Any thoughts on the matter?

(This isn't just towards Koreans, but at this point in time, that's who i am having the biggest problem with on this issue)

[aka Dave]

There's no reasoning in that statement. It says, well, that unreasonable people are unreasonable.

It's a meaningless tautology. Yes, unreasonable people who reject reason (which would include Ayn Rand) are not reasonble.

In other news, dumb people are dumb.

[RACETRAITOR]

Ayn Rand never seemed like the reasonable type either.

[Gimpokid]

Dude you're quoting Ayn Rand which always gets an automatic: who gives a spinning f*ck?

[moosehead]

[ryoga013]

[The Grumpy Senator]

[curlyhoward]

those who deny reasons, also deny accountability, responsibility and essentially seek to escape the consequences of their actions as much as possible.

sound familiar?


very familiar

[Arthur Dent]

"I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

- Aristotle

I've always liked this one. I think it would be fair to say that to philosophize is to think, and to think is to reason. And here, Aristotle (philosophy majors, correct me if I am wrong) seems to suggest that he obeys laws because of the sense of them, and not out of fear of punishment. I don't mean to suggest simply because one thinks, one can come up with the right reason for doing something. Morality is different from math, as logic is different from reason. Terms are tricky here - especially with that last one.

Sometimes we make choices between what is "right" and what is "human," which can be a question of culture, upbringing, personal experience, or even loyalty. Most people are aware of this of course, though the choices available to us vary within cultures. Some simply do not offer as much choice as others.

The "humanist" style of reason does not work well here it would seem. Korea's culture - as well as what has been mentioned - is also a land of short lived passions. It seems when people are constrained and controlled in most areas of their lives, they do not have the ability or personal learned experience which would allow them to control their emotions. It becomes the release of pent-up stress. Common elsewhere as well, of course.

Although I am not a student, nor admirer, of Ayn Rand, the quote used does contain reason, if not logic (I try not to dismiss a quote simply because of who said it). Quotes from even the most distasteful people can be extremely revealing, and even cautionary. For example this one:

"What luck for rulers, that men do not think."

Easy enough to Google it, but just for fun, would anyone who doesn't already know like to hazard a guess?


It is perfectly reasonable to say that you cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who does not follow reason but rather cultural rules, passions, or even ego. Even just plain bull-headed stubbornness. Readers of this board (those who try to follow reason) are certainly no strangers to this idea. The use of the word conquer does not, I believe, need to be thought of in its common usage of totally overwhelming someone or something in the violent sense, but rather in the way of winning an argument, or being overwhelmed in one's position or opinion through the use of reason.

Although, as has been mentioned, it seems an obvious statement, it often bears repeating. Bullying and intimidation are, after all, common strategies in many areas of human endeavour, along with fear-mongering. It takes other qualities than simply reason and common sense to win an argument. Strength of will, commitment, intelligence, experience, knowing one's adversary, etc.

And it bears mentioning that pride in reason can also be our downfall.

Interesting post, and perhaps good practice for us all in testing our abilities when it comes to reason.

[viipuri]

Though not the most well-written of books (sometimes far too general, other times terminology goes without fuller explanation), I think "The Geography of Thought" by Richard Nisbett provides some insight into the lack of logic and use in East Asian generally (and how we Westerners might over employ it at times...).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geography_of_Thought

Also, I think Grumpy Senator's "guenyahng" is meant to be 그냥 in Korean - a common reply meaning 'just because' to the question of "Why?"

[moosehead]

[ryoga013]

[Arthur Dent]

Moosehead Wrote:

[Whistleblower]

My wife, whom is Korean, is very wise.

[DC in Suwon]

I come to believe that wherever you go you may find that people are unreasoned. Maybe it's time to just not worry about it and live.