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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: Dokdo fight! |
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I see Korea and Japan are fighting again over Dokdo/Takeshima/Liancourt Rocks. I personally like the last name best because the first two mean island, and it's really just two rocks jutting out of the sea.
Apparently Korea has been planning to make stamps with a picture of the 'island' on it, and Japan is thinking of doing the same...That's why in the newspaper today there were pieces about Koizumi's ����(����) - crazy talk..can't think of a better way to phrase that word. Lots of Japanese politicians do a ���� when they talk about Korea during WWII/Dokdo and the like, and Chinese politicians also do a ���� when they talk about Chinese history close to the North Korean border where lots of Korean people live. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Here's a Korean guy that seems opposed to Japan's claim.
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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Juggertha
Joined: 27 May 2003
Location: Anyang, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| I'm told that the islands are only part of the issue, that it also lies in the range of oceanic territory (ok Its late and i'm tired). But basically it plays into range of fishing and other rights. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:10 am Post subject: |
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A fight over a couple rocks--bah. Making it a fishing issue is one thing, but trying to attach emotional attachment and value to a couple of oversized rocks seems pretty dumb. If they were habitable (by more than a couple cursed soldiers) it would be one thing, but...
I don't either nation can claim the moral high ground on this one. They should stick to the fishing rights issue. |
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weatherman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.oranckay.net/blog//?theDate=20040110#200401101
This is a great post and really explains the issue better than I could ever dream of doing.
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Call it a disputed territory, and you are siding with Japan.
One of the reasons Korea's foreign ministry tries to keep the Korean population from getting too confrontational about this is because it, and many others, believe that Japan's strategy here is to get it formally declared a "disputed territory" by the International Court of Justice and placed on the court docket. Once there, anything could happen.
The more cold-headed Korean strategy is to just keep quiet about it most of the time. Korea has control over those rock formations, and if domestic Japanese politics requires that country's politicians lie to their people about Takeshima, then so be it. If Koreans make a massive stink, if a few gangsters bite their fingers and write things in their own blood in front of the Japanese embassy tomorrow morning, then it will turn the occasional Japanese comment made for domestic purposes into a bonanza for the world media, and then someday you might see maps produced in the West that say "Dokdo/Takeshima." I wouldn't rule out any lobbying important bodies on the part of Japan, but often it has been Korea that makes sure those utterly ridiculous Japanese claims get plenty of attention.
The Japanese claim that it owns Dokdo because it incorporated the island(s) in 1905 further underscores how Japan remains unable to face its imperialist past. 1905? Are you kidding? Japan was up to a whole lot of no good here that year. That Japan "annexed" the island in 1905 only means that Japan's annexation of Korea began in 1905, then it annexed the rest in 1910. The 1905 claim is almost an admission of guilt. If it had a significant claim several decades earlier, then at least it wouldn't have happened at the same time it was already manipulating so much of was taking place in Korea in the same period.
There do seem to be some voices suggesting Korea should just let this go to the International Court of Justice. Any serious look at the matter and the conclusion is that Japan is talking nonsense, and, or so I hear, most Japanese experts agree.
I imagine there are a lot of things I don't understand about domestic Japanese politics, particularly about the far right and the influence it wields. I do think that as far as the "history-distorting textbook issue" is concerned, one of the reasons Korea got so upset is because it can't understand how a country can have no uniform, official party line about its history. In Korea, when the government approves a history textbook, it means the government approves with the textbook's contents, with the interpretations being made, making the book a list of correct answers. Apparently, Japan has to approve textbooks that don't have factual errors (and the only thing you can call "factual" about history are the dates), because, unlike Korea, Japan does not have the same kind of legislated correct answers. So, the Japanese government had to approve of those problematic textbooks. There was just no basis for rejecting them, even if it wanted to.
The good news, however, was that only an extreme minority of Japanese schools chose to use those textbooks. Parents and teachers around Japan rejected them in what was the best evidence yet that both countries have a future together. It seems to me that when the Japanese right talks nonsense, most ordinary citizens don't pay much attention. I hope they largely ignore it because there's no reason for concern.
In the meantime, Dokdo is not a "disputed territory" so let's not make it one. The next time a Japanese politician claims it belongs to them, the "correct answer" is "Yeah, right!" |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Interesting post, but misleading.
Can anyone point out Korea's historical links with Takeshima (Dokdo)? I havent been able to find any historical links to Dokdo for Korea but found plenty of plenty of info stating that Japan had claimed the island hundreds of years ago, and have accurate maps from the time and a grant of the island issued by the Tokugawa Shogunate to a noble Japanese family.
As far as I can see, South Korea's concrete claim to the island only goes back as far as 1954 when South Korea sent security guards to occupy the island. If they didnt use the army then my may not have been confident about their claim. Japan then called for the islands disposition to be resolved by the International Court, but was rejected by ROK. The current status of the island is "disputed territory".
The Koreans apparently claim that the island was part of the Silla dynasty 1500 years ago. However information is very sketchy and the fact that Korea had never made use of the island is undeniable.
That is about as much about the issue that I know. If anyone has more information which is more than just hearsay, then I would like to hear it. Especially from mith, who was never rude to me on the other thread. |
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tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Oh look, the supposedly impartial Aussie is again taking the side of the Japanese....whatever. |
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ThreeDogNight
Joined: 30 May 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
Interesting post, but misleading.
Can anyone point out Korea's historical links with Takeshima (Dokdo)? I havent been able to find any historical links to Dokdo for Korea but found plenty of plenty of info stating that Japan had claimed the island hundreds of years ago, and have accurate maps from the time and a grant of the island issued by the Tokugawa Shogunate to a noble Japanese family.
As far as I can see, South Korea's concrete claim to the island only goes back as far as 1954 when South Korea sent security guards to occupy the island. If they didnt use the army then my may not have been confident about their claim. Japan then called for the islands disposition to be resolved by the International Court, but was rejected by ROK. The current status of the island is "disputed territory".
The Koreans apparently claim that the island was part of the Silla dynasty 1500 years ago. However information is very sketchy and the fact that Korea had never made use of the island is undeniable.
That is about as much about the issue that I know. If anyone has more information which is more than just hearsay, then I would like to hear it. Especially from mith, who was never rude to me on the other thread. |
I side with you for one reason: The Japanese would not usually go overboard in claiming something that represented them in any way in regards to losing face about their horrible past. |
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visviva
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Those with an actual interest in the topic may find this list of websites useful: [url]dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Secession/Dokdo[/url] .
Cheers,
Your friendly local Open Directory editor.
PS Yes, I know it's a territorial dispute, not a secession issue.  You try maintaining a directory of 4 million sites ... [/url] |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:28 am Post subject: |
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I've always claimed the island as mine; that would solve the problem. I have some fake documents on my home page to prove it.
Now, seriously...
Most of the Japanese people I know have no idea where the island is and don't seem to care much. Japanese politicians there are a different matter. In Korea everybody is quite vehement about the issue...It seems to be quite similar to those rocks close to the shore of Morocco that both Spain and Morocco claim. I suppose it's a matter of pride, of not wanting to back down. If my memory serves me Korea agreed to let Japan have the fishing rights around the island which made the people here quite angry...I think they said the government was pressured to back down or something. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Why don't they each take one island?
Wait!
Then they would fight over who gets the bigger one.
I agree with Mithridates, most Japanese either don't know about this dispute or don't care. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| I liked it better when they called it Tokdo... |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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I would agree that the majority of Japanese people are mostly unaware, or only vaguely aware, of the issue. But Japanese people are like that on most issues - apathetic. I guess the big difference is that after ww2 the Japanese media became very cautious about advertising Japanese territorial claims lest the people be whipped into a nationalist frenzy.
After investigating the issue, ive found that both sides might have legitimate claims to the island. Since most countries dont recognise either country's claim to the island, I dont see why the Koreans wont let it be resolved peacefully in the International Court. |
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Dan
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Sunny Glendale, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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wait! japan also claimed korea japanese land.
Hello! My name is Tokumasa Furuta!  |
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