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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| riverboy wrote: |
The problem is that cops tend to use them when their lives are not in danger (Vancouver airport). Police should be trained at restraint better.
How, or why in the hell should four officers not be able to restrain and cuff one person? |
And in turn I'd ask - why should they have to?
I mean, if people are going to be arses, they run certain risks.
Don't fight cops and you won't get hurt. |
Agree with this, but cops who tase unresisting people should be charged with assault. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
The problem is the lack of training.
Using a taser to avoid getting your uniform dirty is just plain lazy.
Unfortunately that is how it is deployed.
It is actually safer than using a nightstick (police baton).
(another police implement that lacks proper training) |
No, they are not safe. Pumping that much electricity through someone's body, not knowing what conditions they may have, is much more dangerous than a blow with a blunt object that might cause a bruise or at worst break a bone. |
I've gotta ask man, how many brawls you been in? I've seen my share in the clubs, people getting hit with all manner of objects, and in now way am I confident enough to say that 'only a bone will be bruised or broken'. Hell, a guy I used to work with killed a guy by pushing him. That's right, all he did was push a guy and tell him to go home - and the guy died.
ANY time there is a physical confrontation between people, there is a decent chance of things going to shit.
| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| riverboy wrote: |
The problem is that cops tend to use them when their lives are not in danger (Vancouver airport). Police should be trained at restraint better.
How, or why in the hell should four officers not be able to restrain and cuff one person? |
And in turn I'd ask - why should they have to?
I mean, if people are going to be arses, they run certain risks.
Don't fight cops and you won't get hurt. |
Agree with this, but cops who tase unresisting people should be charged with assault. |
Agreed here too. They need to be held accountable. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| riverboy wrote: |
The problem is that cops tend to use them when their lives are not in danger (Vancouver airport). Police should be trained at restraint better.
How, or why in the hell should four officers not be able to restrain and cuff one person? |
And in turn I'd ask - why should they have to?
I mean, if people are going to be arses, they run certain risks.
Don't fight cops and you won't get hurt. |
Yeah. That vancouver airport death while tragic seemed not the fault of the cops. The guy was smashing up computers. He was big. He was angry for no problem. He was being violent in an airport. They had no idea who or what they were dealing with. Maybe a diversion while terrorists went to work. They had to shut the situation down asap. Doesn't anyone realize if you're violent and dangerous in an airport post-9/11 that's NOT good for your health?
And yes. If you armchair QB what the cops should have done, you go comfort big angry guys smashing up computers. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]Yeah. That vancouver airport death while tragic seemed not the fault of the cops. The guy was smashing up computers. He was big. He was angry for no problem. [quote]
That my friend is not true. The man was detained in customs for 18 hours and was offered no interpreter. I'd be pretty stressed out. not to mention that they zapped him four times. After the was down on the ground.
Again. Cops should be able to handle that kind of situation. It used to be that way, but today cops are more violent in many cases that the criminals. Iv've worked too many clubs where cops were just waiting to beat up some drunk for whatever reason.
I really beleive there is a serious policing problem bcak in Canada right now.
The RCMP used to have a size restriction. Back then, people din't mess with them. Now they are ridden with too many people with "short man complexes" that they don't do their original job of "serving and protecting"
I hate cops by the way  |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
The problem is the lack of training.
Using a taser to avoid getting your uniform dirty is just plain lazy.
Unfortunately that is how it is deployed.
It is actually safer than using a nightstick (police baton).
(another police implement that lacks proper training) |
No, they are not safe. Pumping that much electricity through someone's body, not knowing what conditions they may have, is much more dangerous than a blow with a blunt object that might cause a bruise or at worst break a bone. |
Statistics show more death from Nightstick misuse than from Tasers.
I never said that either were safe just that the Taser is safer than the nightstick.
However with proper training in the escalation of force a police officer
should be able to deploy any device of less than deadly force in his
arsenal without causing death.
I don't like the taser strictly for the reason that the manufacturer has
refused to provide proper training for it's use.
There are some stupid cops. To say that the state police officer in Alaska
who brought a taser home and demonstrated it on his son was not
properly trained, I would answer why is someone that dumb on the force
to begin with
There have even been deaths attributed to handcuffs another training issue. |
You'd have to come out with statistics on the number of times nightsticks are used versus tasers and corresponding rates of fatalities. I'm not sure any such statistics exist. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
The problem is the lack of training.
Using a taser to avoid getting your uniform dirty is just plain lazy.
Unfortunately that is how it is deployed.
It is actually safer than using a nightstick (police baton).
(another police implement that lacks proper training) |
No, they are not safe. Pumping that much electricity through someone's body, not knowing what conditions they may have, is much more dangerous than a blow with a blunt object that might cause a bruise or at worst break a bone. |
I've gotta ask man, how many brawls you been in? I've seen my share in the clubs, people getting hit with all manner of objects, and in now way am I confident enough to say that 'only a bone will be bruised or broken'. Hell, a guy I used to work with killed a guy by pushing him. That's right, all he did was push a guy and tell him to go home - and the guy died.
ANY time there is a physical confrontation between people, there is a decent chance of things going to shit.
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It depends on the situation. If a guy's weilding a bat telling police he's going to clobber him, yeah, by all means taser him. But what if someone's mearly resisting arrest (say, refusing to be handcuffed) or generally being uncooperative while posing no physical threat to the cops? Cops that respond to that kind of situation by tasering someone are simply wimps and / or cowards and / or vindictive, and unfortunately I fear that countries like Canada have far too many such people walking around in blue uniforms. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
The problem is the lack of training.
Using a taser to avoid getting your uniform dirty is just plain lazy.
Unfortunately that is how it is deployed.
It is actually safer than using a nightstick (police baton).
(another police implement that lacks proper training) |
No, they are not safe. Pumping that much electricity through someone's body, not knowing what conditions they may have, is much more dangerous than a blow with a blunt object that might cause a bruise or at worst break a bone. |
I've gotta ask man, how many brawls you been in? I've seen my share in the clubs, people getting hit with all manner of objects, and in now way am I confident enough to say that 'only a bone will be bruised or broken'. Hell, a guy I used to work with killed a guy by pushing him. That's right, all he did was push a guy and tell him to go home - and the guy died.
ANY time there is a physical confrontation between people, there is a decent chance of things going to shit.
|
It depends on the situation. If a guy's weilding a bat telling police he's going to clobber him, yeah, by all means taser him. But what if someone's mearly resisting arrest (say, refusing to be handcuffed) or generally being uncooperative while posing no physical threat to the cops? Cops that respond to that kind of situation by tasering someone are simply wimps and / or cowards and / or vindictive, and unfortunately I fear that countries like Canada have far too many such people walking around in blue uniforms. |
Yeah, I think there needs to be a clear set of guidelines regarding the usage of it.
-Baseball bat wielding guy = taser
-guy throwing punches = taser
-woman high on crack and scratching people's eyes = taser
-guy protesting being fired and sitting in front of his office = negotiation
But even in that last example... there comes a point where force comes into play. I just think any time force is used - there is danger. And I'd much rather see that danger levied against the perpetrator than the officer.
| riverboy wrote: |
That my friend is not true. The man was detained in customs for 18 hours and was offered no interpreter. I'd be pretty stressed out. not to mention that they zapped him four times. After the was down on the ground. |
Got a link for this? |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Jandar wrote: |
The problem is the lack of training.
Using a taser to avoid getting your uniform dirty is just plain lazy.
Unfortunately that is how it is deployed.
It is actually safer than using a nightstick (police baton).
(another police implement that lacks proper training) |
No, they are not safe. Pumping that much electricity through someone's body, not knowing what conditions they may have, is much more dangerous than a blow with a blunt object that might cause a bruise or at worst break a bone. |
Statistics show more death from Nightstick misuse than from Tasers.
I never said that either were safe just that the Taser is safer than the nightstick.
However with proper training in the escalation of force a police officer
should be able to deploy any device of less than deadly force in his
arsenal without causing death.
I don't like the taser strictly for the reason that the manufacturer has
refused to provide proper training for it's use.
There are some stupid cops. To say that the state police officer in Alaska
who brought a taser home and demonstrated it on his son was not
properly trained, I would answer why is someone that dumb on the force
to begin with
There have even been deaths attributed to handcuffs another training issue. |
You'd have to come out with statistics on the number of times nightsticks are used versus tasers and corresponding rates of fatalities. I'm not sure any such statistics exist. |
Nightsticks have been around for centuries causing thousands of deaths, the taser has been here for a few years causing hundreds of deaths. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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So who's to fault the cop for using a taser against an incoherent guy wielding a heavy computer.
Whether it's a bat or a computer or even a fluorescent tube, the problem really is the rush to judgment, then there is the problem of slow judgment leading to injury or death.
Training is lacking too many cops get their training from TV. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Got a link for this? |
My numbers were a little off, but it's pretty much the same. Cops simply are not what they were. Bring back the 6'2" big rugged farm boy with no little, I'm going to be a cop so I can work out my bitternesss, angry man and these situations will be far less frequent.
| Quote: |
VANCOUVER � Dazed and confused after more than 15 hours of travel, unable to communicate in English and scared because he couldn't find his mother, Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski was jolted by a taser just 24 seconds after being confronted by police in Vancouver International Airport.
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071025.wtaser1026/BNStory/National/home
If there was no controversy, the RCMP would not have immediately confiscated and refused to return it.
"At the request of police, he gave them the video on the understanding they would return it immediately. When they then refused to give it back, he launched court action. Police returned it last week."
http://www.nowpublic.com/crime/vancouver-airport-taser-death-tape-released
In my opinion this is a clear case of Police brutality where, like all cases like this, the police will receive no real descipline
[/quote] |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| riverboy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Got a link for this? |
My numbers were a little off, but it's pretty much the same. Cops simply are not what they were. Bring back the 6'2" big rugged farm boy with no little, I'm going to be a cop so I can work out my bitternesss, angry man and these situations will be far less frequent.
| Quote: |
VANCOUVER � Dazed and confused after more than 15 hours of travel, unable to communicate in English and scared because he couldn't find his mother, Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski was jolted by a taser just 24 seconds after being confronted by police in Vancouver International Airport.
|
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071025.wtaser1026/BNStory/National/home
If there was no controversy, the RCMP would not have immediately confiscated and refused to return it.
"At the request of police, he gave them the video on the understanding they would return it immediately. When they then refused to give it back, he launched court action. Police returned it last week."
http://www.nowpublic.com/crime/vancouver-airport-taser-death-tape-released
In my opinion this is a clear case of Police brutality where, like all cases like this, the police will receive no real descipline
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[/quote]
| riverboy wrote: |
| That my friend is not true. The man was detained in customs for 18 hours and was offered no interpreter. I'd be pretty stressed out. not to mention that they zapped him four times. After the was down on the ground. |
I'm hopin you see the difference between what you've claimed and what you've provided. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| not really |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Leftopia - A land where only the criminals have weapons. |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. That vancouver airport death while tragic seemed not the fault of the cops. The guy was smashing up computers. He was big. He was angry for no problem.
| Quote: |
That my friend is not true. The man was detained in customs for 18 hours and was offered no interpreter. I'd be pretty stressed out. not to mention that they zapped him four times. After the was down on the ground.
Again. Cops should be able to handle that kind of situation. It used to be that way, but today cops are more violent in many cases that the criminals. Iv've worked too many clubs where cops were just waiting to beat up some drunk for whatever reason.
I really beleive there is a serious policing problem bcak in Canada right now.
The RCMP used to have a size restriction. Back then, people din't mess with them. Now they are ridden with too many people with "short man complexes" that they don't do their original job of "serving and protecting"
I hate cops by the way |
There's a case of the NZ police fatally shooting a guy who was smashing things with a golf club. It caused a certain amount of uproar in NZ. While the force used was excessive, the police had no better options. Tasers would have provided an option. |
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