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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: What We (the US) Could Do for the Palestinians |
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What We Could Do for the Palestinians
| Amjed Atallah wrote: |
| What if field hospitals were set up on the Egyptian-side of the border right outside of Gaza that were run by the U.S. . . . or any of our European allies, and the ICRC were responsible for shuttling non-combatants, especially women and children, from inside Gaza . . . and you have American, Norwegian, Swiss doctors healing and saving the lives of these civilians and then sending them back inside Gaza |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Our immediate, tactical intervention in the conflict will change little or nothing. Less effective than even a band-aid. |
It may alleviate needless suffering and also show that the US, you know, actually gives a shit.
It wouldn't be intervention, either. It'd be medical treatment. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| A humanitarian mission like that mentioned above would get my vote. Healing the sick and injured is never a bad idea. |
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Jandar
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:46 am Post subject: |
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What's to guarantee the Hams won't bomb it?
Otherwise I'm all for it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| It wouldn't be intervention, either. It'd be medical treatment. |
When we intervene in a conflict between two warring parties, it remains intervention, no matter how we explain our motives for intervening. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| It wouldn't be intervention, either. It'd be medical treatment. |
When we intervene in a conflict between two warring parties, it remains intervention, no matter how we explain our motives for intervening. |
The United States already intervenes in one way or another by giving Israel 3 billion dollars or so every year. It has a lot of military aid, and loan guarantees which Bush senior tied to freezing settlements when Shamir was around, but his son didn't care, and was supposedly called by Olmert (who knows what's the truth) and told to make sure the US abstained. I don't think Bush junior has handled the situation well, and that's part of the reason why it's in a big mess, though it was always messy. The US is involved with its Arab allies and Israel, it's ally, and it is not in the U.S.'s advantage for things to blow up in the region.
It has certain geopolitical ramifications that I think some pragmatists worry about. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Adventurer: my point is not to hastily intervene into a warzone, reacting to this or that crisis-of-the-moment, putting our people in harm's way in a hate-filled environment, just because the weak-sisters among us see shooting and start crying that we need to make it go away (again). No more no less.
The Obama administration, if I read the situation correctly, will likely intervene into the strategic conflict in a circumspect and effective way -- and wait, among other things, until it actually assumes office this week before moving. And as far as W. Bush goes, he has had one foot out the door the last several weeks or so.
These considerations are not only relevant when considering why the American govt, at any level, remains in a kind of holding pattern on a number of things. But it also helps explain why Tel Aviv moved at this particular time -- and why it has now pledged to withdraw its forces before B. Obama's inauguration. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| It wouldn't be intervention, either. It'd be medical treatment. |
When we intervene in a conflict between two warring parties, it remains intervention, no matter how we explain our motives for intervening. |
Then we're beyond the point of intervention, Gopher.
| Quote: |
The US Army Corps of Engineers has been helping the Egyptian government detect tunnels used to move weapons and other contraband into Gaza, the Pentagon said Thursday.
A small number of US civilians with the Corps have been providing technical advice to the Egyptians over a period of months, said Geoff Morrell, the Pentagon press secretary. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The Army Corps of Engineers role was providing "strictly technical advice," he said...no US civilians were working near the border with Gaza... |
I agree that we are and have been engaged in this conflict, and for decades. I do not believe that the interventionism you cite here is comparable to the ill-considered proposal you ref, above, that we place civilians on the ground there, where they will likely take hits. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: What We (the US) Could Do for the Palestinians |
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| Kuros wrote: |
What We Could Do for the Palestinians
| Amjed Atallah wrote: |
| What if field hospitals were set up on the Egyptian-side of the border right outside of Gaza that were run by the U.S. . . . or any of our European allies, and the ICRC were responsible for shuttling non-combatants, especially women and children, from inside Gaza . . . and you have American, Norwegian, Swiss doctors healing and saving the lives of these civilians and then sending them back inside Gaza |
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If I were the Hamas leadership, I would enthusiastically endorse this proposal. Then if it ever became reality I would send all my injured fighters over there and claim they were non-combatants. Ordinary civilians who were bombed by the evil Israelis. Then they would be healed and sent back inside Gaza where they could return to the fight. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Adventurer: my point is not to hastily intervene into a warzone, reacting to this or that crisis-of-the-moment, putting our people in harm's way in a hate-filled environment, just because the weak-sisters among us see shooting and start crying that we need to make it go away (again). No more no less.
The Obama administration, if I read the situation correctly, will likely intervene into the strategic conflict in a circumspect and effective way -- and wait, among other things, until it actually assumes office this week before moving. And as far as W. Bush goes, he has had one foot out the door the last several weeks or so.
These considerations are not only relevant when considering why the American govt, at any level, remains in a kind of holding pattern on a number of things. But it also helps explain why Tel Aviv moved at this particular time -- and why it has now pledged to withdraw its forces before B. Obama's inauguration. |
My point, Gopher was, we can't have excessive carnage down there, which is different than a little shooting which raises the political temperature close to breaking point, and that has been a problem, wouldn't you agree?
I agree that people should not simply intervene without a strategy. There must be a strategy a plan, finding ways to defuse the situation.
At the moment, most Israelis and Palestinians are probably thinking, "We can't, and change we can't believe in". There used to be optimism, but after Netanyahu wanted to destroy Oslo, and then Arafat's men in some of his brigades reacted with violence and then Hamas with its suicide bombings aggravated stuff, and then Sharon goes to the Temple Mount to put some more gasoline on the fire. It has gotten worse since 1993.
Oslo has not worked. A final settlement that makes sense is needed.
Obama's government will be interesting, because it has a mix of different kinds of Jews in there who don't quite all see eye-to-eye. If you have Jews quite to the Left of Netanyahu with Obama, and Netanyah as prime minister it's not going to be a pretty situation, perhaps. I hope the parties to the left of Netanyahu get enough seats to where they can form a government. At any rate, even if Netanyahu wins he won't have a strong mandate which was what happened to him before. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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You have to understand that history has shown certain truths.
Those of two warring parties who dont accept peace, have never accepted peace unless its forceid upon them.
We must accept that unless they want peace, we cant give it to them until they want it. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: |
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You have to understand that history has shown certain truths.
Those of two warring parties who dont accept peace, have never accepted peace unless its forced upon them.
We must accept that unless they want peace, we cant give it to them until they want it. Otherwise you must bleed them until they want it and in todays day we cant do that. |
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