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the_wicker_man
Joined: 14 Jan 2009
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| the_wicker_man wrote: |
| Africa makes its own problems. The can cut birthrate to sustainable levels as we have done in the West. A gesture that is free. "Free", as in costs no money. |
As for US/Africa relations...if that is your concern...George W Bush pumped tons of money into that continent already..he has like 80-85% approval rate and probably one of the only continents in the world that absolutely adores the guy. With Obama's election, of course that love affair is going to keep on continuing.
In my experience, people who complain about their leaders not doing anything in somewhere like Africa, for one, don't know anything to even know what they actually do, and two, generally do NOTHING themselves.
If you are VERY concerned about birthrates in Africa personally...I suggest taking your teaching skills and getting over there.
It's not what a new U.S. president can do on inaguration day rather than be inaugruated...it also isn't about pumping tons of money into Africa which has been going on at obscene rates for way too long..
It's what can YOU personally do...and the system is already set in place that you could do a lot with an NGO. The entire continent of Africa is over-run with NGO's which just absorb shitloads of money from western countries already...the system is in place...you could be a good samaritan, help out Africans, and suck the U.S. dry while riding around in your Range Rover across the Serenghetti Plains. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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wickerman replied:
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| Did my post sound trollish? Yes, but it has genuine merit. |
No, it sounded ridiculous and you're flattering yourself. Like most Americans, I won't lose one moment of sleep over your accusations.
Let's see you and the MOD girl show as much ire toward African's tinpot dictators like Mugabe as you do toward the former and current administration.
Oh, and how much are the Canucks and Europeans doing? Physician: heal thyself. |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Seems like the Euros are doing their share, thank you.
http://ec.europa.eu/echo/funding/finances_en.htm
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Humanitarian Aid's finances
The European Union is the world's largest humanitarian donor in the world and the European Commission's humanitarian assistance alone represents between 30-40% of the total EU humanitarian funding reflecting the European Union's solidarity with the victims of natural and man-made disaster. |
Find someone else to point fingers at. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Stars defended:
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| Find someone else to point fingers at. |
Oh, the EU does indeed provide relief aid. But the last time I checked that is comprised of a consortium of nations, not one nation. Regardless, when you factor in the other forms of American aid, governmental and nongovernmental, it comes out to much for.
I just get tired of the sanctimony and the U.S. always being the pinata for everyone who thinks the West should do more. The Arab states like Saudi Arabia and UAE should do more.
And the bottomline is that Africans should do more for themselves. Can't blame colonialism any longer. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: |
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The American government doesn't provide AID for Africa so much as economic development of their own business interests. 90% of their "aid funds" are tied back to America (though, the speaker in the debate put it at 80%). Italy and Japan are the only two that come even close to that. More "socialist" countries (like Canada and W.Europe countries) still tie their aid but NOTHING like the states.
In terms of "obligations", it could easily be argued that nobody is "obliged" to help anyone else on this planet. Helping people isn't about obligation though; it's about easing suffering. It's difficult to view photos like this:
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=malnurished+children&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2 and not have some desire to help them.
mises,
As for Will Easterly, thanks for the name. The only thing I'd point out is that the grand majority of in field work being done is done BY the "searchers". Smaller NGOs (often, though by no means exclusively associated with religious organizations) tend to be searchers and have very direct and usually long lasting affects on the problems they solve.
As for the debate, I think the motion should have read "Current systems of aid to Africa are doing more harm than good".
I don't think the current systems are doing much in the way of HARM, but they are definitely not doing as much good as they should be. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| it's full of stars wrote: |
Seems like the Euros are doing their share, thank you.
http://ec.europa.eu/echo/funding/finances_en.htm
| Quote: |
Humanitarian Aid's finances
The European Union is the world's largest humanitarian donor in the world and the European Commission's humanitarian assistance alone represents between 30-40% of the total EU humanitarian funding reflecting the European Union's solidarity with the victims of natural and man-made disaster. |
Find someone else to point fingers at. |
I really hate when unknowledgeable people talk about how great Europe is because they rape Africa...oh, sorry, I mean...HELP Africa.
Study NGOs and development money, PLEASE. These are the biggest thiefs on the planet...Europe involved in Africa is essentially doing development PROJECTS...which hire European CONSULTANTS..and give them big fat PAYCHECKS to drive around in RANGE ROVER vehicles all day and charge the African governments with enormous debts for their so-called 'development'. Then these development agencies decide they need DAMS and other LARGE PROJECTS...which once again get give more contracts to MORE Europeans 'development' firms once again to hire more westerners to do more projects.... the bill goes to the individual African governments significantly more than anything they can ever have imagined with incredibly high interest rates that they'll never pay off in all eternity.
HEY, there is a reason EUROPE is WEALTHY...its not because of amazing corporations...its because they rape the world with development projects, predominately in Africa. This is no mystery here. The U.S. does it too...and Canada is every bit as bad. But yes, as someone quoted, Europe is the MOST involved % wise in this thieving.
The moment people know the REALITY...then suddenly it'll switch...well, by $$ alone, the U.S. is the worse...ignore the % stats...blah blah blah.
If the Western world REALLY wanted to help Africa...they'd STOP sending money down there altogether and WIPE THE DEBTS clean...and it MUST be done collectively. But, of course, you never hear ANY of them ever talk about it, because there is way too much rape to do of Africa for ALL of North America and Europe to let this one go.
NOTE: Sorry, It's Full of Stars, this isn't directed to you, I'm not even sure your argument or feeling one way or another. But everyone of these types of threads always has someone who will begin to talk about the greatness of European for its *ahem* supposed 'humanitarian aid'...and just cutting this argument off before it gets started. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
I don't think the current systems are doing much in the way of HARM, but they are definitely not doing as much good as they should be. |
Easterly's point is that the development projects represent what donor nations think Africa ought to build, not what Africa actually would benefit from. Therein lies the harm. Also, the corruption, nepotism etc. |
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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the_wicker_man wrote:
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| Your point is not valid. Haliburton et al was bad, the rank and file Republicans knew they were duped, there was little morale on their side. The other side was supposed to flush that kind of nonsense out. They didn't. |
Ok, as if it wasn't obvious in the OP that you are just a partisan hack, this statement proves it. Even Haliburton was the Liberals fault! Hahahaha. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Easterly's point is that the development projects represent what donor nations think Africa ought to build, not what Africa actually would benefit from. |
Hmm... So he's making the claim that Africans (leaders/commoners/ organizers) rarely/never are consulted?
Few things:
1) There are different types of aid as well, of course. If we are only talking about development aid (I'm guessing that's the main focus here)
2) Smaller NGOs simply don't have the resources to squander; nor the cash available for huge development projects. The groups that go from village to village installing wells are vital to Africa's development. Workers are hired and trained in each village.
3)
| Quote: |
| If the Western world REALLY wanted to help Africa...they'd STOP sending money down there altogether and WIPE THE DEBTS clean. |
Couldn't disagree more. Sending money down through the right organizations is, not only helpful but crucial to people's survival there. That's a simple fact. People need goats. NGOs go in and buy thousands of goats (at cheaper prices than any individual farmer could have bought) and distributes them. Taking that away from Joe Africa will kill him. Erasing debt may not be the best actions either.
4) Tiger beer, you have a lot of claims in your post. Could you cite a few? I've been desperately trying to find decent and clear data on tied/untied aid and I can't find ANYTHING decent
And this write up on EU's ties to their aid:
http://www.europaworld.org/week247/complete251105.htm
FYI...it's kinda funny. My folks came back from Uganda a few months back. They said that a Chinese company had come in and was working just outside their town, building "something" (they could never figure out what though there was a LOT of heavy equipment). This company was employed exclusively with Chinese folks in any position that would give a livable wage (Africans would work as cooks, cleaners etc..). The company itself shipped over ALL of the heavy equipment (from backhoes, dozers, and hoe-packs) from China...BRAND NEW and all the equipment was expected to leave Africa (or at least that region) upon completion of that building project.
That's effed up!
[/b] |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Easterly's point is that the development projects represent what donor nations think Africa ought to build, not what Africa actually would benefit from. |
Hmm... So he's making the claim that Africans (leaders/commoners/ organizers) rarely/never are consulted?
[/b] |
In some cases, yes. But I read that book a while back (and didn't listen again to the NPR debate today). |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure that "aid" is a really huge umbrella term and that it's carried out in myriad different ways. I think it would be tough to generalize. I'll definitely recommend the books to my folks though. They LOVE reading about aid work. |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Oh, and how much are the Canucks and Europeans doing? Physician: heal thyself. |
| Quote: |
ManintheMiddle wrote:
Oh, the EU does indeed provide relief aid. But the last time I checked that is comprised of a consortium of nations, not one nation. Regardless, when you factor in the other forms of American aid, governmental and nongovernmental, it comes out to much for.
I just get tired of the sanctimony and the U.S. always being the pinata for everyone who thinks the West should do more. The Arab states like Saudi Arabia and UAE should do more.
And the bottomline is that Africans should do more for themselves. Can't blame colonialism any longer. |
Well you asked what are Europeans doing? I gave you an answer, Europeans do quite a lot. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make it less true.
Stick your money where the sun don't shine if that's the way you feel. I walk past beggars and I don't give to everyone. Sometimes I give, usually I don't. I am a firm believer in working for your money.
Whether the USA should give more or less than any other country or group of countries, that I don't know. That's up to your own governement, and your fellow citizens.
You don't like generalisations (I suppose) any more than anyone else:
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| I just get tired of the sanctimony and the U.S. always being the pinata for everyone who thinks the West should do more. |
So tough if you're tired. As you said it's the biggest donor, it's the biggest economy and whatever else big. Behave like it. Whether that means giving more money, sending in more development, community workers or whatever. Or just be more mature about it. America is the obvious target when talking about the West, get over it.
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| The Arab states like Saudi Arabia and UAE should do more. |
I couldn't agree more.
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| And the bottomline is that Africans should do more for themselves. Can't blame colonialism any longer. |
Again, I couldn't agree more. |
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it's full of stars
Joined: 26 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| No offense taken tiger beer, I was simply answering the question posed. |
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