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nolin nae
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: ���ֹ�
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 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| butterfly wrote: |
| So damn right South Koreans feel the USA is a threat to their peninsula |
yeah, but the question wasn't a threat to "their" peninsula, it was specifically a threat to south korea. your twisting the argument.
| butterfly wrote: |
| Saying that they feel America is a threat is a fact |
no, it's an opinion. and again, a threat to what? peace? america is a bigger threat to peace in south korea than north korea is? how????
| butterfly wrote: |
| the Bush administration is beligerant and irrational |
more than kim jong il?! again, forget the rhetoric and address the issue. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| nolin nae wrote: |
| butterfly wrote: |
| So damn right South Koreans feel the USA is a threat to their peninsula |
yeah, but the question wasn't a threat to "their" peninsula, it was specifically a threat to south korea. your twisting the argument. |
A threat nonetheless. You cant attack one part of this peninsula without the other being endangered. Hence that 'threatened' feeling.
| nolin nae wrote: |
| butterfly wrote: |
| Saying that they feel America is a threat is a fact |
no, it's an opinion. and again, a threat to what? peace? america is a bigger threat to peace in south korea than north korea is? how???? |
No. It is a FACT that they feel threatened. They aint making that sheet up.
| nolin nae wrote: |
| butterfly wrote: |
| the Bush administration is beligerant and irrational |
more than kim jong il?! again, forget the rhetoric and address the issue. |
The South Koreans feel less threatened by Kim Jong-il, obviously. Otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did in the survey. Probably something to do with Bush being leader of the most powerful country in the world, which controls a vast military machine and over 60% of the world's wealth, and an agenda which nobody can quite work out and Kim Jong-il being a despot leader of a knackered country, which has lost its support from China, has bugger-all money, and by the looks of things wants pretty much to be left alone except to receive food aid?
'Axis of Evil' |
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nolin nae
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: ���ֹ�
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| butterfly wrote: |
| The South Koreans feel less threatened by Kim Jong-il Otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did in the survey. Probably something to do with Bush being leader of the most powerful country in the world, which controls a vast military machine and over 60% of the world's wealth, and an agenda which nobody can quite work out and Kim Jong-il being a despot leader of a knackered country, which has lost its support from China, has bugger-all money, and by the looks of things wants pretty much to be left alone except to receive food aid? |
and it is exactly this "feeling" that i have a problem with. the "feeling" seems to reside more with those in their 20s and 30s, the same group that was out demanding a personal apology from bush for a car accident and demanding revisions in SOFA. the issue they i've with this "feeling" is that too much of it is based on emotion and too little is based in logic. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| nolin nae wrote: |
| butterfly wrote: |
| The South Koreans feel less threatened by Kim Jong-il Otherwise they wouldn't have voted the way they did in the survey. Probably something to do with Bush being leader of the most powerful country in the world, which controls a vast military machine and over 60% of the world's wealth, and an agenda which nobody can quite work out and Kim Jong-il being a despot leader of a knackered country, which has lost its support from China, has bugger-all money, and by the looks of things wants pretty much to be left alone except to receive food aid? |
and it is exactly this "feeling" that i have a problem with. the "feeling" seems to reside more with those in their 20s and 30s, the same group that was out demanding a personal apology from bush for a car accident and demanding revisions in SOFA. the issue they i've with this "feeling" is that too much of it is based on emotion and too little is based in logic. |
Also, most people in their twenties and beyond don't agree with the war in Iraq and don't trust Bush. But hang on, that's not just in Korea...
And Korea is unique in that they have their impoverished and rather stubborn neighbors in the North included in Bush's little triumvirate of 'enemies'. 'Axis of evil'. Scarey, who is next? One down... (perhaps people are secretly relieved that Iraq is the monumental cock up that it is, now there's a thought).
All that SOFA stuff is sooooo last year, and a whole lot has happened since then. |
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nolin nae
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: ���ֹ�
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| butterfly wrote: |
| And Korea is unique in that they have their impoverished and rather stubborn neighbors in the North included in Bush's little triumvirate of 'enemies'. 'Axis of evil'. Scarey, who is next? |
who's next? don't know. but i'm pretty sure it won't be south korea. and i'm not defending bush here, but to say he's on a roll and ready to start putting notches on his bedpost is a little premature, don't you think? also, i think it's a little early to be proclaiming iraq a "monumental *beep* up". let's see what happens after the elections, shall we?
yeah, SOFA may be sooo last year, but, according to the article, it still appears to remain in the public consciousness. and yes, a lot has happened since then...like the north admitting their producing nuclear weapons, which many koreans seem to have some strange sense of pride over rather than seeing it as a threat to their security. again, where's the logic? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Butterfly wrote: |
[. Probably something to do with Bush being leader of the most powerful country in the world, which controls a vast military machine and over 60% of the world's wealth, and an agenda which nobody can quite work out and Kim Jong-il being a despot leader of a knackered country, which has lost its support from China, has bugger-all money, and by the looks of things wants pretty much to be left alone except to receive food aid?
'Axis of Evil' |
Building nuclear weapons and advertising the fact doesn't sound like a country that wants to be left alone. Nor do repeated threats of turning Seoul into a "sea of fire". Nor has Kim Jong-il lost his support from China. The oil taps are still on. China does not want the regime to collapse and N.K refugees flooding its borders. Nor does it want a unified Korea, as that would likely mean a U.S. presence on its border with Korea. |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I'm left wing and a huge critic of the Bush administration. Especially their recent "crusade" in the Middle East.
It isn't the dislike for Washington by young Koreans that concerns me. It is the recent whitewashing of Pyongyang. When a German human rights activist was assaulted by North Korean journalists there were plenty of Pyongyang apologists ready to defend the actions of the North Koreans. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:19 am Post subject: Re: the United States more of a threat to Korea |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Do you seriously believe that South Korea didn't benefit from American foreign policy? Who bought their goods? You didn't see many Ford cars on South Korean roads during the 1980's but you saw many Daewoos, and Hyundai cars on American roads. Who bought the electrical goods? The Americans gave South Korea access to the biggest market in the world and you don't consider this a benefit? You don't call the sacrifice of 50,000 troops a benefit? |
i dont see how this helps your argument. its undeniable that selling korean products in foreign markets helps korean businesses. and if america has played a part in that, sure its not bad. but why does that mean that koreans shouldn't bite the hand that feeds them? (assuming it does feed them in the first place)
as to the sacrifice of american (and other) troops in the korean war, definitely that helped SK, but why does that mean that korea should shut its mouth forever because the west helped them out in the korean war? its important to keep in mind that american motives for going into the korean war were not all altruistic. america was concerned about the spread of communist (read: non-american) economic spheres into more areas of asia, thats why they smashed up vietnam. keeping at least part of the korean peninsula out of soviet and chinese influence would give american economic control a strategic foothold in another part of asia.
and thank you for conveniently ignoring my analogy to a north korean having the same discussion as we are. a russian or chinese person might as well be telling north koreans not to criticize them because they supported their regime throughout the communist years. evidently your contempt for simple democratic principles like criticism of brutal regimes doesn't apply to non-american powers. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| nolin nae wrote: |
nice try. first, which american was it that said saddam was behind 9/11?
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the entire bush administration, key democratic figures like joseph lieberman and others. and polls conducted before and during the iraq war indicated a majority of americans believed saddam was behind 9/11 and that he possessed the firepower to fry america.
| nolin nae wrote: |
| second, bush and cheney were alone? thought there were a few more countries involved. england comes to mind. seems you have selective memory... |
in the war effort, america and england were the major players. other nations supported the war but didnt offer very much material support until later. among them are spain, israel, koizumi in japan, and a number of eastern european countries. what distinguishes america from all these other countries is that among them - with the possible exception of israel - it was minorities of their populations that supported the war. i think britain had the highest popular support for the war after america, but it didnt approach a majority like it did in the US. turkey's brutal regime did what the overwhelming majority of its country wanted and didnt allow american use of its land for an attack on iraq. wolfowitz demonstrated his love for democracy by slamming turkey for going along with the wishes of most of its people and said that turkey would pay a price for its disobedience. even england, where popular support was higher for the war than in other countries with war-supporting governments experienced a huge backlash of public outrage that blair dragged them into the war, something that sadly has yet to happen in america.
| nolin nae wrote: |
and on what do you base your statements of lower education standards and susceptibility to fear and war-mongering?
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i base it on what americans themselves have told me, what some excellent american films like Roger & Me and Bowling for Columbine have documented, and the general behaviour of many americans (most relevantly those in positions of academic and political authority) that indicates that popular american beliefs reflect huge ignorance of the way the world works. consider the issue yourself instead of just attacking me. explain how its possible that a majority of americans were rallied to make war on iraq based on basically no evidence that sadddam was behind 9/11? in my mind, thats possible because the silly american president exploited the legitimate anger and emotional baggage of 9/11 to his own ends and made his administration sound so convinced of the danger of iraq. a less-educated populace falls for that kind of thing, as do severely indoctrinated populations. consider too the attitudes of many americans immediately after 9/11. i couldnt have felt anything but sympathy for american rage after that atrocity but as for supporting the murderous assault on afghanistan that failed to root out the perpetrator of 9/11 - that was just disgusting. disgusting doesn't even come close to describing it. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Alias wrote: |
| It isn't the dislike for Washington by young Koreans that concerns me. It is the recent whitewashing of Pyongyang. When a German human rights activist was assaulted by North Korean journalists there were plenty of Pyongyang apologists ready to defend the actions of the North Koreans. |
im not about to defend NK, but these attitudes are sometimes complex. i read an article a few months ago that said that apparent youthful "support" for NK isn't so much support as it is attempts at solidarity with their fellow koreans to the north. i dont exactly agree with that thinking because ive seen the horrifically ugly consequences of it in cases such as blanket support for anything israel does because one might be jewish, and because it just doesnt make complete sense. but it makes sense that young koreans would "stick with their own" in what they view as a massive threat by the US to smash up NK - a smashing-up that wouldn't spare the south either. in the end though, its silly to exploit these attitudes and say that young koreans are morons who don't understand and aren't thankful for "all the US does for them" |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Building nuclear weapons and advertising the fact doesn't sound like a country that wants to be left alone. Nor do repeated threats of turning Seoul into a "sea of fire". Nor has Kim Jong-il lost his support from China. The oil taps are still on. China does not want the regime to collapse and N.K refugees flooding its borders. Nor does it want a unified Korea, as that would likely mean a U.S. presence on its border with Korea. |
I said left alone except to receive food aid. NK can't afford to be forgotten, they would starve.
China isn't going to enter a war with the USA over North Korea are they? |
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Alias
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ohahakehte"]im not about to defend NK, but these attitudes are sometimes complex. i read an article a few months ago that said that apparent youthful "support" for NK isn't so much support as it is attempts at solidarity with their fellow koreans to the north.[ /quote]
It is more solidarity with the regime in Pyongyang and not with the North Koreans themselves. I've read several times where the humanitarian crisis in North Korea has been called "US propoganda". There has not been much sympathy for North Korean refugees in China. Perhaps groups like Hanchongryon see them as "bourgeois". I think this has more to do with Pan-Nationalism than concern for their brethren in the North. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Alias"]
It is more solidarity with the regime in Pyongyang and not with the North Koreans themselves. I've read several times where the humanitarian crisis in North Korea has been called "US propoganda".
[ /quote]
ya i dont agree with that either. but its certainly true that Bush and others are exploiting the humanitarian and human rights abuses of the north for their own ends, as if thats why Bush and Cheney hate NK so much.
| Alias wrote: |
I think this has more to do with Pan-Nationalism than concern for their
brethren in the North. |
after saddam was "captured" various news channels were broadcasting images of palestinians marching in solidarity w/ hussein. i dont know how much they actually were supporting him or how much cnn was just playing up the images to fit their ideology - but i think it might be similar to SK support for pyongyang. for all of saddams horrendous crimes (many of them done with US material and diplomatic support), some palestinians feel they should applaud a tough bastard who stood up to the US instead of giving in as arafat has done... |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:32 am Post subject: Re: the United States more of a threat to Korea |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| please show me how a south koreans privilege is derived from american foreign policy |
That is why I made the argument about the US giving the the Koreans access to their markets. |
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Hank Scorpio
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| but its certainly true that Bush and others are exploiting the humanitarian and human rights abuses of the north for their own ends, as if thats why Bush and Cheney hate NK so much. |
Umm, yeah, in a nutshell that is why Bush and Cheney hate NK so much. If our stated position of opposing Orwellian hermit states that employ reeduction camps, starvation as a weapon, threatening their neighbors, and proliferation of nukes doesn't go down smooth with the rest of the world, then sorry, screw the rest of the world. |
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