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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Perceptioncheck wrote: |
I guess the door does swing both ways, but an important point of difference is that most Koreans - and especially those that choose to migrate - have studied English for a considerable portion of their lives and have at least some ability in the language. As a New Zealander, however, my exposure to Korean before I moved here was minimal at best and it's been very difficult to form any kind of meaningful relationship with non-English speaking Koreans. In this regard, I'd say that migrating Koreans have a hand up on round-eyes moving to Korea. |
That's true. Coupled with the fact that Koreans can choose a variety of different work and study options in NZ whereas we are more or less relegated to being English teachers, Koreans would have more opportunities to integrate if they really wanted to. |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| I guess the Kiwis feel like they're being invaded? The Kiwis I've met have seemed like a pretty easygoing liberal bunch but then I'm white, and I wasn't talking to skinheads or drunk teenagers. |
Indeed. The Kiwis you meet abroad are generally the 'good' ones who are educated and motivated  |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Thewhiteyalbum wrote: |
I was thinking about this - my Mum teaches at a primary school where they often have foreign teachers come to 'observe' and their English is at very different levels (some can hardly speak it at all). These teachers have little to do with the staff and stay in special housing.
My Mum and her staff go out of their way to make the teachers feel comfortable - a dream of one of the Japanese teachers was to ride a horse - so my Mum took her to a farm and spent the day with her. Other members of the staff did other things to make the teachers comfortable.
Cut to Korea...the teachers at one of my schools all drive past me while I wait at the bus stop every day..rain, snow, drought..we are all going in the same direction - into the town. They look the other way as they pass. And I am not the miserable fcuker in real life that I am on this board, I get on well with the staff. They know buses only go past every 20 minutes and have seen me just miss a bus in a blizzard(!) and STILL drive straight past me. Dirty rotters.
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I've been at a school in NZ where a Thai delegation came to observe how things were done and most of the Kiwi staff were very welcoming. BUT, I think this was more because it was a one-off, short-term welcoming effort. I doubt the the Kiwi teachers would have gone out of their way so much if the foreign teachers were sticking around long-term. Likewise, if we only came to Korea for a few days to observe a few classes then our welcomers would likely have put their best foot forward also. |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| southern boy wrote: |
North Island is a pooh-hole! Period.
Have you evern taken the time to think it the other way around? That the majority of them made very little effort to integrate a new society- let's illustrate
-Nelson, they chose not to mixed in with the local. A simple hi and smiles were given but non return.
-lack of care and concern for the environment and the surrounding community (except for their uri-nara)
-Dunedin, Korean church is solely for the koreans.
-hogging onto uni public computers during examination periods.
-talk loudly in koreab insidle and nearby the library.
-acting superior and looked down on those who they deemed to be 'dirty' to worthless.
-self-pretentious being friendly when other nationals or the local wanted to get to know them.
I can't speak for other part of NZ, but my experienced at the Otago Uni tells enough. |
One of the main points of the article is that most Korean migrants go to NZ eager to integrate, then find the doors shut to them when they arrive. With no Kiwi support to fall back on they naturally turn to the Korean community. This creates a snowball effect, where the Korean community gets larger and more insular and is therefore shunned all the more by resentful locals who are annoyed that Koreans don't integrate.
Also, the students at Otago (my old Uni! I grew up in Opoho! ) are probably of a different ilk to the immigrants in Christchurch. |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
She doesn't have the teaching certification. If she does, she would be right in the door.
Having studied myself at CHCh College of Ed I'd say that she would have no trouble fitting in with classes and getting by - we had a real multi culture of people in the intake. There wasn't a sense of snottiness either, however, one Pakistani guy didn't really get on well with others, but he had some strange dogmatic attitudes, you know.
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You raise a good point. We all know how different the Korean style of teaching is to the Kiwi. Plus I doubt if many of the Korean teachers I've met here would be able to handle the willful and apathetic and often very rude kids in NZ schools without resorting to shouts and/or violence.
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Don't blame them but. |
In Christchurch, neither do I! |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| excitinghead wrote: |
Blatant plug for my blog sorry, but back in July last year there was the first ever conference for "Kowis" in Auckland, which I wrote a little about here:
http://thegrandnarrative.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/immigration-identity-and-the-internet-lessons-from-korean-new-zealanders/
It sounds a little harsh, but I concluded that at least half the blame for many of the problems experienced lay firmly with the Korean immigrants themselves, particular those to do with language: the internet certainly doesn't help with integration. The conference website, for instance, was the first ever English website for them after almost two decades of substantial immigration. |
You have a very interesting blog. I couldn't tell from reading it though if you're an ethnic Kowi yourself. I've met very few Korean New Zealanders in my time, it'd be great to be able to get a non-American gyopo perspective on social integration. |
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Thewhiteyalbum
Joined: 13 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hierophant wrote: |
| Thewhiteyalbum wrote: |
I was thinking about this - my Mum teaches at a primary school where they often have foreign teachers come to 'observe' and their English is at very different levels (some can hardly speak it at all). These teachers have little to do with the staff and stay in special housing.
My Mum and her staff go out of their way to make the teachers feel comfortable - a dream of one of the Japanese teachers was to ride a horse - so my Mum took her to a farm and spent the day with her. Other members of the staff did other things to make the teachers comfortable.
Cut to Korea...the teachers at one of my schools all drive past me while I wait at the bus stop every day..rain, snow, drought..we are all going in the same direction - into the town. They look the other way as they pass. And I am not the miserable fcuker in real life that I am on this board, I get on well with the staff. They know buses only go past every 20 minutes and have seen me just miss a bus in a blizzard(!) and STILL drive straight past me. Dirty rotters.
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I've been at a school in NZ where a Thai delegation came to observe how things were done and most of the Kiwi staff were very welcoming. BUT, I think this was more because it was a one-off, short-term welcoming effort. I doubt the the Kiwi teachers would have gone out of their way so much if the foreign teachers were sticking around long-term. Likewise, if we only came to Korea for a few days to observe a few classes then our welcomers would likely have put their best foot forward also. |
Sorry, I should have mentioned that these observers are living in the area for 6 months to a year, so they aren't sort of in and out..they hang around for a while and are a constant source of concern to my Mum.
("Judy saw Yasuko biking around without a helmet! I must tell her she has to wear one here..") and so on. Makes me laugh actually as I am sure some of the same things are said about me in the small town i am living in. Gotta love the gossip mill. |
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excitinghead
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| The Hierophant wrote: |
| You have a very interesting blog. I couldn't tell from reading it though if you're an ethnic Kowi yourself. I've met very few Korean New Zealanders in my time, it'd be great to be able to get a non-American gyopo perspective on social integration. |
Thanks, but sorry, I'm just an acme Caucasian male that's spent the last 9 years living in Busan, albeit one with a Korean wife and two daughters and a lot of interest in immigration issues, the result of my family moving between England, NZ, and Australia many times as a teenager. My wife and I also planning to return to NZ eventually for the sake of our kids too. |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Thewhiteyalbum wrote: |
Sorry, I should have mentioned that these observers are living in the area for 6 months to a year, so they aren't sort of in and out..they hang around for a while and are a constant source of concern to my Mum.
("Judy saw Yasuko biking around without a helmet! I must tell her she has to wear one here..") and so on. Makes me laugh actually as I am sure some of the same things are said about me in the small town i am living in. Gotta love the gossip mill. |
That's nice of your mother to take Yasuko under her wing like that. I've found that many of the older female Korean teachers at my public school have a similar attitude with me (I often wish they didn't as it can get a little smothering). I guess it boils down to local culture. I live and work in a nice part of Gangnam, but I hear stories from people in other parts of Seoul and in other Korean cities where the people are much less friendly. What part of NZ is your mother in by the way? |
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The Hierophant
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| excitinghead wrote: |
Thanks, but sorry, I'm just an acme Caucasian male that's spent the last 9 years living in Busan, albeit one with a Korean wife and two daughters and a lot of interest in immigration issues, the result of my family moving between England, NZ, and Australia many times as a teenager. My wife and I also planning to return to NZ eventually for the sake of our kids too. |
Ah, that's interesting. Has your wife spent much time abroad? What does she think of the mini-Koreas in Western countries ? |
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Thewhiteyalbum
Joined: 13 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hierophant wrote: |
| Thewhiteyalbum wrote: |
Sorry, I should have mentioned that these observers are living in the area for 6 months to a year, so they aren't sort of in and out..they hang around for a while and are a constant source of concern to my Mum.
("Judy saw Yasuko biking around without a helmet! I must tell her she has to wear one here..") and so on. Makes me laugh actually as I am sure some of the same things are said about me in the small town i am living in. Gotta love the gossip mill. |
That's nice of your mother to take Yasuko under her wing like that. I've found that many of the older female Korean teachers at my public school have a similar attitude with me (I often wish they didn't as it can get a little smothering). I guess it boils down to local culture. I live and work in a nice part of Gangnam, but I hear stories from people in other parts of Seoul and in other Korean cities where the people are much less friendly. What part of NZ is your mother in by the way? |
She is from a small town at the bottom of the North Island.
For me (I teach at 2 schools) the difference between the friendliness at each is quite amazing. I would have had a completely different experience if I had been solely at either rather than both. The English level is low at both schools, but at the first school the teachers have gone out of their way to help me and include me - to the point where they tell me everything they are talking about! Everything. And yes, it can get very smothering.
At the second school - well - it is the one where the teachers will drive past me walking through a blizzard. They aren't rude to me, but I can tell they couldn't really care less. It is good to have both perspectives I think. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
If you take a survey we'd find discrimination to be a major topic during an interview with any 'foreigner' in Korea.
One thing about this though is not realistic in terms of discrimination for the Korean in NZ:
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One woman, who achieved top marks in New Zealand teaching and maths examinations, finally gave up trying to find a teaching position, despite a reported shortage of qualified maths teachers.
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She doesn't have the teaching certification. If she does, she would be right in the door.
Having studied myself at CHCh College of Ed I'd say that she would have no trouble fitting in with classes and getting by - we had a real multi culture of people in the intake. There wasn't a sense of snottiness either, however, one Pakistani guy didn't really get on well with others, but he had some strange dogmatic attitudes, you know.
PS: Korean churches, Korean supermarkets, Korean newspaper etc, = little intergration.
Don't blame them but. |
Yep I found that strange too. Are they talking about a competence test? Teachers don't take a test to be qualified and only registered teachers get jobs.
When I did my training ten years ago in NZ, my prof group had people from all over the world. A nuclear engineer and GP from Egypt, others from India, Pakistan, England, a Welsh ex rugby league player!!
I'm from Christchurch and did my training there. The white supremacist gangs suck. The odd school teacher did utter stuff I didn't like about the Asian students too.
The blame doesn't rest solely on either group. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The Hierophant wrote: |
| excitinghead wrote: |
Thanks, but sorry, I'm just an acme Caucasian male that's spent the last 9 years living in Busan, albeit one with a Korean wife and two daughters and a lot of interest in immigration issues, the result of my family moving between England, NZ, and Australia many times as a teenager. My wife and I also planning to return to NZ eventually for the sake of our kids too. |
Ah, that's interesting. Has your wife spent much time abroad? What does she think of the mini-Koreas in Western countries ? |
The question was directed at me but...
My father was talking about an area that seems to have quite a few Koreans in it in Christchurch. He said something about us thinking of getting a house there when we/if we shift there. I was pretty puzzled by it myself and told my wife. Her response was "What for?" |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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I never did meet or even see any of the white supreme people in CHCH. Wife did get shouted at by teenagers once when walking, "Go home Chink." But hey, I've heard that same one reversed several times here.
CHCH is a nice pretty town. Great for kids, parks everywhere you look. But, I was living on the west side of the city - not the eastern suburbs and areas near the industrial belt, which are not really the best.
It's a fantastic location, close to the alps and springs and orcas and stuff, sweet sitting by the runway when the 747's take off ... easy to get around the town as well. But, thin on public teaching jobs - because they are really sought after. |
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Horangi Munshin
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah it's extremely difficult to get a public school teaching job in Christchurch. I won't repeat what was told to me when I asked some teachers why that is the story. Enough NZ bashing already! |
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