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Islam film Dutch MP to be charged
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CyberGuy

Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:37 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

No, it tells them to engage in Jihad until the whole world submits to the will of Allah. Sure, it justifies 'defensive' Jihad. Unfortunately, it also justifies offensive Jihad, something which Muhammed himself engaged in.

Hmm, lets see an Australian of good conduct keeps on striving for the betterment of his own life as well as the lives of people around him. He is patriotic too. He stands for the good values of his people and is thankful to them. So, in being gracious he also believes that the people in other places of the world also have the best of humane values under justice, equality, charity and well-being. He feels bad about people suffering in 3rd world and wants to help them get out of trouble. He opposes the puppet rules of 3rd world and wants to help the people under oppression, even through force. He believes if anybody attacked or slandered his people then he has the full right to defend his people.

Thats really a very kind and righteous gentleman, right? What if there are multiple people like him? what if majority of his people think and act like him? That would be great.

Now lets say such people happened to be Muslims and they have same passions and same beliefs for the betterment. of human beings Suddenly you get the feeling: Oh, they are terrorists and what they believe is what they call Jihad. Hence, Muslims are terrorist and Jihad is terrorism.

bigverne wrote:

I believe criticising a violent ideology and then having this proven by the ensuing violence committed by that ideology's adherents is the same as being met with violence by a group of people who have been racially abused for no reason

Oh, read what you said carefully again. Cuz thats how you misquote and thats how you believe about people who misinterpret different things. They twist the meaning and make it their belief, and you come out preaching as if the scriptures were like that.

Hypocrisy prevailing,
USSR invades Afghanistan. You realize helping illiterate cavemen living in Afghanistan are useful for you. Suddenly they become your Mujahadeen and Heroes. You put dirt in your eyes and tell the world what these Afghans are doing is Jihad and is very essential for peace in the world.
After USSR loses the war and breaks into pieces then you suddenly realize: OMG, these Afghans are illiterate, women oppressing, music banning terrorists. OMG, their leaders are the most wanted terrorists.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:50 am Post subject:

Quote:

I see Muslims believe in a book which tells them if they are in war then they should fight the enemy and kill'em.

# "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray."
Muslims generally interpret "those whom Allah has favored," "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray" as Muslims, Jews, and Christians, respectively. 1:6-7

# Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

# Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

# Allah has blinded the disbelievers. 2:17-18

# A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

# Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

# Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

# Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

# If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

# Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88

# The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89

# Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

# Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

# Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

# For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

# Don't question anything Muhammed says or choose disbelief over faith. 2:108

# "But those who keep their duty to Allah will be above them [non-muslims] on the Day of Resurrection." 2:212

# For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

# "And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119

# Disbelievers are losers. 2:121

# Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

# "Who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself?"
Cited in the Hamas Charter (Article 27) to condemn the idea of a secular state. 2:130

# Those who reject the proofs, are accursed of Allah. 2:159

# Those who die disbelievers, are cursed by Allah, angels, and men. 2:161

# The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

# They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

# Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171

# Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174

# How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

# Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

# Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

# Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

# Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206

# War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

# Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

# Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221

# The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254

# Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

# Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264

# "Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:286

# Those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. 3:4

# Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10

# Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

# Non-muslims will be punished by Allah for their nonbelief. 3:19

# "If they surrender, then truly they are rightly guided, and if they turn away, then it is thy duty only to convey the message."
(The message for those who won't surrender is "you're going to hell.") 3:20

# Those who disbelieve, promise them a painful doom. 3:21

# "They [Christians and Jews] say: The Fire will not touch us save for a certain number of days. That which they used to invent hath deceived them regarding their religion." (The Fire will burn them forever.) 3:24

# Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28

# Allah loveth not the disbelievers. 3:32

# Allah will punish disbelievers in this world and the next. They will have no helpers. 3:56

# Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

# Theirs will be a painful doom. 3:77

# All non-Muslims will be rejected by Allah after they die. 3:85

# Apostates will be cursed by Allah, angels, and men. They will have a painful doom. 3:86-88

# Disbelievers will have a painful doom. And they will have no helpers. 3:91

# Disbelievers will have their faces blackened on the last day. They will face an awful doom. 3:105-6

# Muslims are the best people. Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers." 3:110

# Those who disbelieve will be burnt in the Fire. 3:116

# Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118

# The Fire is prepared for disbelievers. 3:131

# Give us victory over the disbelieving folk. 3:147

# Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149

# We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Their habitation is the Fire 3:151

# "Is one who followeth the pleasure of Allah as one who hath earned condemnation from Allah, whose habitation is the Fire?"
Unbelievers will burn forever in the Fire. 3:162

# Theirs will be an awful doom. 3:176

# Disbelievers do not harm Allah, but will have a painful doom. 3:177

# Disbelievers will go to Hell. 3:196

# Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

# For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18

# For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

# "Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not." 4:46

# Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

# Those who ascribe a partner to Allah (like Christians do with Jesus and the Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven. They have "invented a tremendous sin." 4:48, 4:116

# Those who invent lies about Allah are guilty of flagrant sin. 4:50

# Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims. 4:51

# "Those (Christians and Jews) are they whom Allah hath cursed." 4:52

# Hell is sufficient for their burning. 4:55

# Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. 4:56

# Those who refuse to follow Muhammad, follow false gods and are deceived by Satan. 4:60

# Those who refuse to believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad are hypocrites. 4:61

# Oppose and admonish those who refuse to follow Muhammad. 4:63

# The hypocrites refuse to die for Allah and Muhammad. 4:66

# Those who obey Allah and Muhammad are favored by Allah. They are the best company. 4:69

# Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

# Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

# Allah casts the hypocrites back to disbelief. Don't try to guide those that Allah sends astray. 4:88

# Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

# If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91

# Believers shouldn't kill believers, unless by mistake. If you kill a believer by mistake, you must set free a believing slave. 4:92

# Believers who kill believers will go to hell. 4:93

# The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101

# For the disbelievers, Allah has prepared a shameful punishment. 4:102

# Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. They have no hope from Allah. 4:104

# Those who oppose the messenger and become unbelievers will go to hell. 4:115

# They (those who ascribe partners to Allah) invoke in his stead only females and pray to Satan. 4:117

# Allah will lead them astray and they will go to hell. 4:119-121

# Those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe and disbelieve again will never be forgiven by Allah. 4:137

# For the hypocrites there will be a painful doom. 4:138

# Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers into hell. 4:140

# Allah will not allow disbelievers to succeed against believers. 4:141

# Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144

# The hypocrites will be in the lowest part of hell and no one will help them there. 4:145

# You must believe everything Allah and his messengers tell you. Those who don't are disbelievers and will face a painful doom. 4:150-151

# For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1

# God will guide disbelievers down a road that leads to everlasting hell. 4:168-169

# Those who deny Islam will be losers in the Hereafter. 5:5

# Disbelievers are the rightful owners of Hell. 5:10

# Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13

# Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. 5:14

# Christians are disbelievers for believing in the divinity of Christ. 5:17

# Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

# Disbelievers will have a painful doom. 5:36

# Disbelievers will want to come out of the Fire, but will not. Their will be a lasting doom. 5:37

# Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38

# Allah makes some people sin. He will not cleanse their hearts. They will have ignominy in this world, and in the Hereafter an awful doom. 5:41

# Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45

# Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51

# Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53

# Allah could replace nonbelievers with believers who would love him and do whatever he says. 5:54

# Your only friends should be Allah, Muhammad, and those who believe correctly (Muslims). 5:55

# Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57

# Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59

# Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63

# Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64

# Allah does not guide disbelievers. 5:67

# The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71

# Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72

# Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73

# Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80

# Disbelievers will be owners of hell-fire. 5:86

# Allah will test believers to see if they are afraid. Those who fail a second test will suffer a a painful doom. 5:94

# After agreeing to send down a table of food from heaven, Jesus warns his disciples that will catch holy hell if they ever stop believing. 5:115

# Those who deny the truth of Islam will be punished by Allah. 6:5

# "See the nature of the consequence for the rejecters!" 6:11

# "Those who ruin their souls will not believe." 6:12, 20

# Disbelievers will say when they see the Fire that they would have believed if they had known the truth. But they are all liars. 6:27-28

# Allah will torment those how deny his revelations. 6:49

# Stay away from those who "meddle with" or mock the Quran. 6:68

# Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70

# When nonbelievers die, the angels will deliver to them doom and degradation. 6:93

# Stay away from idolaters. 6:106

# Allah confounds the hearts and eyes of unbelievers. 6:110

# Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111

# Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die. 6:113

# The worst thing anyone can do is deny the revelations of Allah. Those who do so will be awared an evil doom. 6:157

# Disbelievers lose their souls. 7:9

# Allah has made devils the protecting friends of disbeliveers. 7:27

# Disbelievers choose devils as protecting friends and believe they are rightly guided. 7:30

# Only believers go to heaven. 7:32

# Allah forbids beliefs that he hasn't revealed (i.e., all non-muslim beliefs). 7:33

# Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire. 7:36

# Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37

# Disbelievers will be excluded from heaven. Theirs will be a bed of hell. 7:40-41

# Those in the fire will be taunted by those in the Garden. "So how's it going down there? Are you enjoying the warmth of the Fire?" 7:44

# Those in the Fire will cry out to those in heaven, saying: "Pour water on us." But Allah has forbidden that to disbelievers. 7:50

# Those who forget Allah will be forgotten (sent to hell) on Judgement Day. 7:51

# Serve Allah or go to hell. 7:59

# Allah drowned everyone on earth (except Noah and his family) because they disbelieved. 7:64

# Disbelievers are liars. 7:66

# Those who believe incorrectly will face the terror and wrath of Allah. 7:71

# "We cut the root of those who denied Our revelations and were not believers." 7:72

# Allah killed the disbelievers with an earthquake. 7:78

# Allah killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except Lot and his daughters.
7:83-84

# "So the earthquake seized them."
Allah killed the disbelievers with an earthquake. 7:90-91

# "Then We seized them unawares, when they perceived not."
Unbelievers are never safe from Allah's wrath. 7:95-99

# "How can I sorrow for a people that rejected (truth)?"
Shu'eyb tells the Allah's victims that they deserved to die for rejecting Islam. 7:93

# "We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136

# Allah will destroy non-muslim cultures. 7:138-9

# "Those who deny Our revelations and the meeting of the Hereafter, their works are fruitless." 7:147

# Those who worship the calf will suffer terror and humiliation from Allah. 7:152

# "Those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful." 7:157

# "But those of them who ... changed the word ... We sent down upon them wrath from heaven." 7:162

# "When they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We ... visited [them] with dreadful punishment." 7:165

# Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166

# Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167

# Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176

# Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177

# Stay away from those who blaspheme Allah's names. They will be punished for it. 7:180

# Allah leads astray those who deny his revelations. 7:182-3

# "Allah ... cut the root of the disbelievers."
Allah destroyed the unbelievers. 8:7

# Allah will throw fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, and smite their necks and fingers. 8:12

# Disbelievers will be tormented in the Fire. 8:14

# When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16

# Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17

# "The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense [the non-muslims]." 8:22

# Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve. 8:35

# Those who disbelieve will be gathered into hell. 8:36

# Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39

# The angels smite the face and backs of disbelievers, saying: "Taste the punishment of burning!" 8:50

# The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. 8:55

# Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60

# Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65

# A prophet may not take captives until he has made a slaughter in the land. 8:67

# Disbelievers cause confusion and "corruption in the land." 8:73

# "Ye cannot escape Allah. Allah will confound the disbelievers." 9:2

# Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve. 9:3

# Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5

# Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6

# Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9

# Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11

# Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. 9:12-14

# Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 9:17

# Don't make be friends with with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers. 9:23

# Allah punished those who disbelieved. 9:26

# Only idolaters are unclean. Keep them away from your places of worship. 9:28

# Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29

# Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30

# The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33

# Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34

# Allah does not guide the disbelievers. 9:37

# Fight for Allah with your wealth and whatever weapons are available to you. 9:41

# Those who refuse to fight for Allah (claiming they are unable) are liars who have destroyed their souls. 9:42

# Disbelievers go to hell. 9:49

# "Allah will afflict you with a doom from Him or at our hands." 9:52

# Pay your contribution willingly. Allah will not accept a contribution from disbelievers or idlers. 9:53

# Those who vex the Prophet, for them there is a painful doom. 9:60

# Allah is only pleased by true believers. 9:62

# Those who oppose Allah and His messenger will burn in the fire of hell. 9:63

# Allah promises hypocrites and disbelievers the fire of hell. Allah curses them. They will have a lasting torment. 9:68

# Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73

# Allah will afflict disbelievers with a painful doom in this world and the Hereafter. 9:74

# God will not forgive disbelievers, so don't ask. 9:80

# Those who refuse to give their wealth and lives to Allah will face the fire of hell. 9:81-83

# Don't pray for dead disbelievers or attend their funerals. 9:84

# Those who refuse to fight for Allah will be treated (along with their children) as unbelievers. 9:85

# For disbelievers there will be a painful doom. 9:90

# Non-muslim who pretend to believe (so they won't be killed by Muslims) are unclean and will go to hell. 9:95

# The unbelieving Arabs will be punished by Allah with an evil fortune. 9:97-98

# "We shall chastise them twice; then they will be relegated to a painful doom." 9:101

# Stay away from non-Muslims. They are all liars. 9:107

# Those that ignore Allah will be thown into the fire of hell. 9:109

# Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111

# Don't pray for idolaters (not even for your family) after it is clear they are people of hell-fire. 9:113

# Abraham disowned his father for being an enemy of Allah. 9:114

# Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123

# Disbelievers are wicked and have diseased hearts. 9:125

# Allah turns away those who misunderstand him. 9:127

# Disbelievers will have a boiling drink and a painful doom. 10:4

# If you enjoy life and ignore Muhammad's bullshit, Allah will torture you forever in the Fire after you die. 10:7-8

# Allah has destoyed entire generations. 10:13

# Denying the revelations of Allah is the worst sin imaginable. 10:17

# "Ignominy overtaketh them - They have no protector from Allah - as if their faces had been covered with a cloak of darkest night. Such are rightful owners of the Fire." 10:27

# On the last day Allah will kill all the disbelievers (and then he will torture them forever in hell). 10:45

# Those who disbelieved will face a dreadful doom. 10:70

# Allah drowned those who disbelieved his revelations. 10:73

# Moses asked Allah to harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they would not believe until they saw the painful doom. 10:88

# If you deny the revelations of Allah, you will be among the losers and will "see the painful doom." 10:95-97

# Disbelievers will end up in the Fire. 11:17

# Those who oppose Islam and disbelieve in the Hereafter are guilty of the greatest wrong. 11:18-19

# Allah sent a lasting doom on those who mocked Noah. 11:39

# Those who drowned in the flood were disbelievers. 11:42

# Allah will send a painful doom on several nations. 11:48

# Disbelievers are the rightful owners of the Fire 13:5

# Allah does not hear the prayer of disbelievers. 13:14

# Those who do not answer Allah's call will go to hell. 13:18

# Allah leads disbelievers astry while he torments them in this life. Then afterh they die, he makes them uffer even more pain in the doom of the Hereafter. 13:33-34

# The reward for disbelievers is the Fire. 13:35

# Woe unto the disbelievers. Theirs will be an awful doom. 14:2

# "Lo! for wrong-doers is a painful doom." 14:22

# "They set up rivals to Allah that they may mislead (men) from His way. Say: Enjoy life (while ye may) for lo! your journey's end will be the Fire." 14:30

# Let the disbelievers enjoy life and let false hope beguile them. They will come to know! 15:2-3

# "The disbelievers would not be tolerated." 15:8

# Iblis will lead humans astray. Only perfect Muslims will be safe from him. The rest will go to hell. 15:39-43

# Those who don't believe in the Hereafter are proud. 16:22

# Allah made a roof fall in to kill unbelievers. "And the doom came on them whence they knew not." 16:26

# Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29

# Disbelievers are liars. 16:39

# Theirs will be the Fire, and they will be abandoned." 16:62

# "Theirs will be a painful doom." 16:63

# Allah will add doom to doom for those who disbelieve. 16:88

# Those who oppose Islam will face an awful doom. 16:94

# Those who loose their faith in Islam will face an awful doom. Allah's wrath is upon them. 16:106

# Those who invent lies against Allah will have a painful doom. 16:116-7

# Allah made hell to be a dungeon for disbelievers. 17:8

# Allah has prepared a painful doom for those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 17:10

# Allah destroyed entire towns. 17:16

# How many generations Allah has destroyed since Noah! 17:17

# Allah intends to burn people in hell. 17:18

# "Set not up with Allah any other god, lest thou be cast into hell." 17:39

# Allah makes it so that unbelievers cannot understand. 17:45-46

# Allah will send disbelievers astray. Then he'll burn them in hell, increasing the flames from time to time. 17:97-98

# "He maketh none to share in His government."
Democracy is heresy. Allah shares his government with no one. 18:26

# Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29

# Christians will cry out to Allah's "partners", but they won't hear them; Allah will send them to their doom. 18:52

# The worst wrong is to forget Allah's revelations. Allah covers their hearts and makes them deaf so that they will never believe the truth. 18:57

# On a certain day, Allah will present hell, in plain view, to the disbelievers. 18:100

# Allah will welcome the disbelievers into hell. 18:102

# The good works of disbelievers are all in vain. They will go to hell anyway. 18:104-105

# Hell is the reward for disbelievers because they made a jest of Allah's revelations and messengers. 18:106

# "Woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day."
Jesus was not the Son of God. Those who say he was (Christians) are going to hell. 19:35-37

# Allah will pluck out from every sect those who should burn in hell. 19:69-70

# Allah will prolong the lives of non-believers so they can see their punishment, either in this world or in the Hour of doom. 19:75

# Allah will record what disbelievers say and then prolong their torment. 19:77-79

# Allah has sent the devils on the disbelievers to confuse them. 19:83

# Allah will "drive the guilty unto hell, a weary herd." 19:86

# Lo! it hath been revealed unto us that the doom will be for him who denieth and turneth away." 20:48

# Those who do not believe Allah's revelations will face doom in the Hereafter. 20:127

# Allah destroyed entire towns, yet the people still disbelieved. 21:6

# "And one of them who should say: Lo! I am a god beside Him, that one We should repay with hell." 21:29

# Disbelievers will not be able to put out the fire on their faces and backs. They will be stupefied and no one will help them. 21:39-40

# The disbelievers will stare in terror at what Allah has in store for them. 21:97-99

# Those who turn from the way of Allah will face ignominy in this world and burning in the next. 22:9

# Whoever thinks that Allah will not give Muhammad victory should go hang himself. 22:15

# Disbelievers will wear garments of fire, boiling fluid will be poured on their heads, their bellies and skin will be melted, they will be tormented with iron hooks, and when they try to escape they will be driven back with the taunt: Taste the doom of burning. 22:19-22

# Allah will provide the disbelievers with a painful doom. 22:25

# Those who disregard Allah's revelations are the owners of the Fire. 22:51

# "Those who disbelieve will not cease to be in doubt thereof until the Hour come upon them unawares, or there come unto them the doom of a disastrous day." 22:55

# Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have a shameful doom. 22:57

# Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will burn in the Fire. 22:72

# Those who don't believe in the Hereafter will receive extreme punishment from Allah. 23:74-77

# Disbelievers will not be successful. 23:117

# Those who traduce virtuous, believing women ... cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom." 24:23

# Disbelievers are miscreants. 24:55

# Disbelievers will never escape the Fire that will be their home. 24:57

# The only true believers are those who believe in Allah and his messenger. 24:62

# Those who deny the coming of the Hour will be chained together and burned with fire. They will pray for their own destruction. 25:11-13

# It will be a hard day for disbelievers and wrong-doers. They will gnaw on their hands and wish they had chosen Islam. 25:26-27

# Those who deny Muhammad's revelations will be destroyed. 25:36

# Allah drowned everyone in the flood of Noah, and has prepared a painful doom for evil-doers. 25:37

# "They [the non-muslims] will know, when they behold the doom, who is more astray as to the road." 25:42

# Don't obey disbelievers. But rather fight against them. 25:52

# Those who cry out to another god with Allah will be tormented doubly in hell. 25:68-69

# Many will not believe until they see the painful doom. 26:201

# Those who believe in another god are doomed. 26:213

# Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. 26:224

# Allah leads those who do not believe in the Hereafter astray by making things work out OK in this life, so that he can torment them forever in the next. They will get the worst punishment and will be the greatest losers. 27:4-5

# But he "saved those who believed." 27:53

# Allah will taunt Christians on the day of their doom, saying: Where are My partners whom ye imagined? 28:62-64

# Never help disbelievers. 28:86

# Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah have no hope of mercy. For such there is a painful doom. 29:23

# "Ye have chosen only idols instead of Allah ... on the Day of Resurrection ye will deny each other and curse each other, and your abode will be the Fire, and ye will have no helpers." 29:25

# Only wrong-doers deny the revelations of Allah. 29:49

# Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah are the losers. 29:52

# The doom of hell will come upon disbelievers suddenly, when they least expect it. 29:53-55

# The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. Hell is the home of disbelievers. 29:68

# When the Hour comes, Christians will be divided into two groups: Those who believed Allah's revelations, and those who disbelieved in them. The believers will be happy in the Garden; the disbelievers will be brought to doom. 30:13-16

# Allah does not love disbelievers. 30:45

# Allah seals the heart of disbelievers. (And then he burns them in the Fire.) 30:59

# Those who mislead others from Allah's way and mock Islam will have a painful doom. 31:6-7

# Allah will give disbelievers a little comfort for a little while, and then he'll torment them forever with a heavy doom. 31:23-24

# Allah will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together. 32:13

# Allah: Taste the doom of immortality because of what ye used to do. 32:14

# Those who used to deny the Fire will be tormented in it forever. 32:20

# The worst thing you can do is to deny the revelations of Allah. 32:22

# Don't obey disbelievers. 33:1

# He hath prepared a painful doom for the unfaithful." 33:8

# Allah makes the deeds of unbelievers fruitless. 33:19

# Allah cast panic into the hearts of the disbelievers. He killed some, and enslaved others. 33:25-26

# Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk. 33:48

# Those who malign Allah, Muhammad, and Muslims will be cursed by Allah in this life and with doom in the Hereafter. 33:57

# Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61

# Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming fire, wherein they will abide forever. 33:64-65

# The disbelievers will be burned in the Fire with a double torment. 33:66-68

# Those who challenge the revelations of Muhammad will have a painful doom. 34:5

# "They are filled with remorse when they behold the doom; and We place carcans on the necks of those who disbelieved." 34:33

# Those who disbelieve in the Hereafter will be tormented. 34:8

# Those who strive against Allah's revelations will be brought to the doom. 34:38

# Allah hates those who ignore his messengers. 34:45

# Those who ignore Allah's messenger (Muhammed) will face a terrific doom. 34:46

# Those who are cast into hell be terrified when they see that they have no escape. Then they will believe. But it will be too late. 34:51-52

# Those who disbelieve will have an awful doom. 35:7

# Allah hates disbelievers. 35:26

# Disbelievers will burn forever in the fire of hell. Allah will keep them alive so that he can torture them forever. When they repent and ask for mercy, he will ignore them. 35:36-7

# He who disbelieves, his disbelief be on his own head. 35:39

# Allah has blinded the disbelievers so that they cannot see the truth. So it don't bother warning them. They will go to hell anyway. 36:8-10

# Allah will burn the disbelievers in hell. 36:63-4

# Those who refuse to believe in Muhammad's revelations will face a painful doom. 37:31-38

# If you're not favored by Allah, you're doomed. 37:57

# Allah drowned everyone except Noah and his family in the flood. 37:82

# Only the "single-minded slaves of Allah" will be saved from the doom. 37:127-8

# Allah killed everyone in Sodom except for Lot and his family. 37:136

# No one is against Allah, except those who burn in hell. 37:162-3

# Just wait a while and watch. The unbelievers will soon be destroyed in the doom. 37:176-9

# Those who disbelieve are in false pride and schism. 38:2

# Allah has destroyed many generations. 38:3

# Those who doubt will soon taste Allah's doom. 38:8

# Those who deny the messengers deserve doom. 38:14

# Those who wander from the way of Allah will have an awful doom. 38:26

# Those who disbelieve will burn in the Fire. 38:27

# Tell the disbelievers to enjoy themselves now, because later they will be owners of the Fire. 39:8

# Those who disobey Allah should fear his doom. 39:13

# No one will be able to help those that Allah torments in the Fire. 39:19

# Woe unto those who forget Allah. They are in plain error. 39:22

# The doom will come upon those who deny what Allah has revealed. 39:25

# Allah will make non-believers "taste humiliation in the life of the world" and " the doom of the Hereafter" which will be even worse. 39:26

# The worst thing you can do is tell a lie against Allah. The home of disbelievers is hell. 39:32

# Surrender to Allah before he sends the doom upon you suddenly. 39:54-55

# Disbelievers had their chance to believe. They will all suffer in an endless doom. 39:56-59

# Those who lie about Allah will be sent to hell and will have their faces blackened. 39:60

# Losers are those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah. 39:63

# Those ascribe a partner to Allah (like the Christians) will be among the losers. 39:65

# Those who disbelieve will be driven into hell. 39:71-72

# Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 40:6

# Allah greatly abhors those who disbelieve. 40:10

# Those who ignore Allah's "clear proofs" will be seized and punished severely. 40:22

# Those in hell will beg to be relieved from the Fire's torment for just a day. But the prayer of a disbeliever is in vain. 40:49-50

# Those who bicker about Allah's revelations are filled with pride. 40:56

# Those who scorn Allah will go to hell. 40:60

# Those who deny the revelations of Allah are perverted. 40:63

# Those who deny the Scripture and Allah's messengers will be dragged through boiling water and thrust into the Fire. 40:70-72

# Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my parnters that you used to believe in? 40:73

# Thus does Allah send astray the disbelievers (in his guidance). 40:74

# Those who scorn will go to hell. 40:76

# When they see Allah's doom they will believe in Allah. But their faith will not save them. The disbelievers will be ruined. 40:84-85

# Woe unto the idolaters who disbelieve in the Hereafter. 41:6

# The enemies of Allah will be gathered into the Fire where their skin, ears, and eyes will testify against them. 41:19-20

# Non-muslims will be tormented forever in the Fire. Allah will not have any mercy on them. 41:24

# Allah will make those who disbelieve taste an awful doom. Their immortal home will be the Fire, since they denied Allah's revelations. 41:27-28

# "Lo! those who distort Our revelations are not hid from Us. Is he who is hurled into the Fire better?" 41:40

# Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment. 41:50

# In whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth to Allah."
Disputes, whether religious or political, must be decided by Allah. Democracy is not an option. 42:10

# Those who argue about Allah will have his wrath upon them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 42:16

# "And as for disbelievers, theirs will be an awful doom." 42:26

# Allah sends some people astray and then punishes them for it by burning them in the Fire. 42:44-46

# Those who turn people away from Islam will "be sharers in the doom." 43:37-39

# "But they will come to know."
Allah will torment disbelievers forever in hell. 43:88-89

# Those in torment will claim to believe and ask Allah for relief. But he will refuse since they will return to their disbelief. 44:11-16

# "He hath saved them [Muslims] from the doom of hell."
(Everyone else is going to hell.) 44:56

# Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 45:7-8

# Those who joke about Allah's revelations will go to hell. Theirs will be a shameful doom. 45:9-10

# Those who disbelieve in Allah's revelations will have a awful doom of wrath. 45:11

# Those who disbelieve are guilty folk. 45:31

# Disbelievers will be rewarded with the ignominious doom of the Fire. 46:20

# Serve only Allah or face the doom of a tremendous day. 46:21

# If you believe Muhammed, Allah will forgive some of your sins and protect you from the painful doom (that he plans to torture everyone else with). 46:31

# Allah will taunt the disbelievers that he torments in the fire, saying: "Taste the doom for that ye disbelieved." 46:34

# Allah makes the works of disbelievers vain. 47:1

# Those who disbelieve follow falsehood. 47:3

# Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4

# Allah will damn the disbelievers and make all their actions fruitless. 47:8-9

# Disbelievers may eat and be happy now, but the Fire will be their final home. 47:12

# Those who turn away from Islam, and obey non-Muslims in some things, have been seduced by Satan. 47:25-26

# Angels will gather them together and smite their faces and backs. 47:27

# Allah will make the actions those who disbelieve fruitless. 47:32

# Those who disbelieve will never be pardoned by Allah. 47:34-35

# Those who think an evil thought concerning Allah will be cursed and sent to hell by him. 48:6

# Allah has prepared a flame for the disbelievers. 48:13

# If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16

# "Whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." 48:17

# Allah punished those who disbelieved with a painful punishment. 48:25

# Allah will "cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion." 48:28

# Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

# Allah will hurl those who believe in another god into a dreadful doom. 50:26

# Accursed are the conjecturers who ask: When is the Day of Judgment? It is the day they will be tormented by the Fire. 51:10-14

# "We left behind therein a portent for those who fear a painful doom." 51:37

# Woe to the disbelievers. 51:60

# Those who deny the existence of hell will be thrust into its Fire. 52:11-16

# "Their Lord hath warded off from them the torment of hell-fire."
(Everyone else is going to hell -- and the believers are all okay with that.) 52:18

# Those who disbelieve are trapped. 52:42

# Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels. 53:27

# Those who disbelieve in the afterlife are only guessing and have no real knowledge. 53:29

# Stay away from non-Muslims, especially those who disbelieve in the afterlife. 53:29

# Allah sent a storm of stones on Lot's folk, killing all but Lot's family. 54:34

# The guilty deny hell. But after they die they go circling between it and fierce, boiling water. 55:43-44

# Those who deny Allah and the Hereafter will eat from the Zaqqum tree and drink boiling water. 56:51-54

# Allah will welcome the rejecters and erring with boiling water and a roasting in the hell fire. 56:92-94

# Those who disbelieve or doubt the revelations of Allah will be face the doom. 57:13-14

# The home of disbelievers is the Fire, a hapless journey's end. 57:15

# Those who disbelieve and deny Allah's revelations are the owners of the fire. 57:19

# For disbelievers is a painful doom. 58:4

# For disbelievers is a shameful doom. 58:5

# Those who disobey Muhammed will go to hell. 58:8

# Don't make friends with Allah's enemies. For those who do so, Allah has prepared a dreadful doom. 58:14-15

# Those who turn others away from the way of Allah will have a shameful doom. They are rightful owners of the Fire. 58:16-17

# Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger will be among the lowest. 58:20

# On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters). 58:22

# Allah cast fear into the hearts of the disbelieving People of the Scripture. Their home in the Hereafter will be the Fire. 59:2-3

# "Whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it)."
Do whatever Muhammad tells you to do. (Or you'll go to hell.) 59:7

# The disbelieving people of the Scripture are liars. 59:11

# The disbelievers fear the believers more than Allah. 59:13

# The devil and disbelievers will be in the Fire. 59:16-17

# The owners of the Garden and the owners of the Fire are not equal. 59:20

# Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1

# Don't be friends with those who have warred against you because of religion. Whoever makes friends with them is a wrong-doer. 60:9

# Don't be friends with those who disbelieve in the Hereafter. They are Allah's enemies. 60:13

# The worst thing you can do is tell a lie about Allah. 61:7

# Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions. 61:9

# "O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save you from a painful doom?" 61:10

# A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly. 62:5

# Allah seals the hearts of those who believe and then disbelieve so that they can understand nothing. 63:3

# Disbelievers are perverted. They are the enemy, confounded by Allah. 63:4

# Don't bother to ask Allah to forgive the disbelievers. He will never forgive them. 63:6

# "Might belongeth to Allah and to His messenger and to the believers." 63:8

# Those who disbelieve will have a painful doom. 64:5

# Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire. 64:10

# Be stern with disbelievers. They are going to Hell anyway. 66:9

# Disbelievers will go to hell where they will hear its roaring and boiling. 67:6-7

# Who will protect the disbelievers from a painful doom? (Nobody) 67:28

# Refuse to obey the "rejecters" (Non-Muslims?) who seek compromise 68:8-9

# Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16

# "Shall We then treat those who have surrendered (Muslims) as We treat the guilty (Non-Muslims)?" 68:35

# Those who do not believe in Allah will be chained up and cast into hell-fire where they will eat filth. 69:30-35

# Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30

# "Lo! the doom of their Lord is that before which none can feel secure" (except for maybe those who are fearful of it). 70:27-28

# Disbelievers will enter hell with frantic with fear, knowing they will be tortured forever by Allah. 70:36, 44

# Allah sent Noah to warn people about the painful doom he was planning to send. (It didn't work out well; Allah sent it anyway.) 71:1

# Noah asked Allah to drown all the disbelievers. 71:26

# The fires of hell will be fueled with the bodies of idolators and unbelievers. They will experience an ever-greater torment. 72:15-17

# Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will dwell forever in the fire of hell. 72:23

# Allah will take care of the deniers. He will tie them up, burn them in a raging fire, and feed them food that chokes them. 73:11-13

# The last day will be a day of anguish for disbelievers. 74:9-10

# Those who are stubborn to Allah's revelations will face a fearful doom. 74:16-17

# Allah has appointed angels to tend the Fire and has prepared stumbling blocks for those who disbelieve. He sends some people (whoever he wants) astray. 74:31

# Those who pay attention to this life and ignore the Hereafter will suffer forever in hell. 75:20-29

# Allah has prepared chains, manacles, and a raging fire for the disbelievers. 76:4

# Don't obey disbelievers. 76:24

# Woe unto the repudiators on that day! 77:19, 77:24, 77:28, 77:34, 77:40, 77:45, 77:49

# Depart unto that doom which ye used to deny." 77:29

# Those who deny the revelations given to Muhammed will burn forever in hell. 78:21-30

# "Lo! We warn you of a doom at hand, a day whereon a man will look on that which his own hands have sent before, and the disbeliever will cry: 'Would that I were dust!'" 78:40

# Those who rebel by choosing this life over the next will go to hell. 79:37-39

# Disbelievers are wicked people. On the last day they will be in darkness and have dust on their faces. 80:40-42

# Those who reject Allah's revelations will burn in hell. 83:10-17

# The disbelievers used to laugh at the believers. But the final laugh will be on them. 83:29-36

# Disbelievers will be given a painful doom. 84:22-24

# Those who persecute Muslims, without repenting, will burn in hell. 85:10

# Allah plots against non-Muslims. 86:16

# "Deal gently with them (non-Muslims) for a while. (How long is "a while"?) 86:17

# Allah will punish disbelievers with the direst punishment. 88:23-24

# Allah poured the disaster of His punishment upon those who rebelled against him. 89:11-13

# Those who disbelieve Allah's revelations will have the Fire placed over them like an awning. 90:19-20

# Those who deny Allah's revelations must endure the flaming fire. 92:14-16

# Allah created humans to be "of best stature" but then reduced them "to the lowest of the low". Except for "those who believe and do good works." But what about those who don't believe but do good works? Are they the "lowest of the low"? 95:4-6

# Allah will grab those who deny His guidance by the forelock and call the guards of hell. 96:13-18

# Those who disbelieve will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. 98:6

# Only religious people help orphans or those in need. 107:1-3

# "I seek refuge ... from the evil of malignant witchcraft."
(Witchcraft is evil.) 113:4

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:38 am Post subject:

Quote:

Right because if Bin Laden, or some other turbaned radical were Australian there would be no problem! Let's just take a look at how you portray radical Islam as some kind of noble cause.

He stands for the good values of his people and is thankful to them.

By the 'good values' of his people, I take it you mean theocracy, killing adulterers, homosexuals and apostates and relegating women and minorities to second class status. What a champion for the oppressed!

So, in being gracious he also believes that the people in other places of the world also have the best of humane values under justice, equality, charity and well-being

Ah yes, the humanity of Shariah!

He feels bad about people suffering in 3rd world and wants to help them get out of trouble

You think radical Muslims give a flying f*ck about anyone other than Muslims? I'm afraid infidels don't really count for very much in the Islamist utopia. Also, by 'helping them get out of trouble', I take it you mean instigating terrorist atrocities to ferment revolution in order to usher in a brutal Taliban style theocracy.

He opposes the puppet rules of 3rd world and wants to help the people under oppression, even through force

By overthrowing said dictators and replacing them even more brutal and oppressive regimes.

He believes if anybody attacked or slandered his people then he has the full right to defend his people

By blowing up innocent people, or assassinating those who 'slander' his religion.

What if there are multiple people like him? what if majority of his people think and act like him? That would be great.

Then we have a serious problem and many parts of the world would be backward and intolerant hell-holes.....hang on a minute!

Quote:

Now lets say such people happened to be Muslims and they have same passions and same beliefs for the betterment. of human beings Suddenly you get the feeling: Oh, they are terrorists and what they believe is what they call Jihad. Hence, Muslims are terrorist and Jihad is terrorism.

But such people, don't 'just happen to be Muslims' in the same way that when I read this absurd post I just happened to be drinking whisky. It is the defining aspect of their identity. It informs their worldview, justifies their actions and gives them a political ideology, and a justification for war which goes by the name of Jihad.

The fact that you would even state that radical Muslims believe in the 'betterment of human beings' shows that you are either a Muslim yourself or are a Westerner suffering from the worst case of cultural relativitis I have ever come across.

By the way, instead of offering up such laughable analogies, why don't you actually state your position on whether people should be free to criticise Islam.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject:

There are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. Only a minority adhere to the violent Islamicism founded by the likes of Mawdudi, Qutb and Nabhani, or strict fundamentalist and overly literal sects like Wahhabism (which would just be a deviant desert sect that no-one had ever heard of if Saudi Arabia hadn't been the location of vast oil reserves). Unfortunately these strains of Islam (with the help of Saudi money and missionaries) have been spreading in the last couple of decades (which is very worrying), but still most muslims practice more gentle and compassionate forms. Much of the Islam practised throughout the world is sufi influenced, and the only Jihad they espouse is that done on oneself - i.e. to war against one's own evil nature. I have heard (and read) muslims say that if God wanted everyone to be muslim, he could have done his, and since no-one knows God's reasons for not doing so, all people should be respected because God created them too. Not every muslim despises or hates Christians and Jews, and muslims I know have argued that those muslims who do this are not adhering to the spirit of Islam. In all the Abrahamic religions you can find horrible shit about 'others.' Read the Talmud if you want to read the vilest quotes about gentiles for example. Here are some choice quotes from the Talmud: Non-Jews are Not Human. Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men"). Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses"). Jews May Lie to Non-Jews, Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile. Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human, Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals. Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth. Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows. Abodah Zarah 67b . "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?" There's much worse than too: Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal." Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed." Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly. And for those who think that only Islam is the religion of paedophiles: " Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age. I'm sure you could find similar sh!t spewed by Christians (who were far more 'spectacular' in their jew-hating ways than muslims ever managed). But I'm sure you will agree that not all Christians and Jews are walking around believing any of this crap. So why do you believe that all muslims believe the equivalent nonsense in their scriptures? And scholars from all these 3 religions will argue that these quotes need to be read in a certain context etc etc. and can produce contradicting quotes or parts of the scripture. I find mises and Verne to be as ultra strict and selective in their interpretation of Islamic scriptures as Mr Bin Laden himself!

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject:

A minority of 1.5 billion.. Hmm, how much of a minority. Is CAIR moderate? That organization says it represents American muslims and is unsurprisingly an unindicted co-conspirator in the holy land terror trial, and was founded by members of the muslim brotherhood. They moderates? On any survey they would answer as "moderates", and describe themselves as such. But are they? No. Not by any reasonable definition. So, what, 20%.. You know math. What's 20% of 1,5 billion? How many are in England. How many will be there in 30 years? How much control does that 20% have? To what extent do they shape relations between muslims and kafir in your country? See, you seem to think that I focus on all muslims as if they are radicals. As if. I focus on the large minority. I don't think you're dumb, big bird. I think you're extremely naive, and you're suspending otherwise solid critical skills here. The key is social stability. You're missing the unhinging of social stability. This will not end well. The UK is entering what will like be a 10-15 year period of economic decline and then stagnation. How is this going to play out?

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject:

CyberGuy wrote:

Precisely who are you speaking of. Be very specific. Extremely specific.

WTF? What is with the muslim victim complex? You are aware that slavery and genocide still exist in the "muslim world" right? Get your own god damned house in order before setting your people up as noble. Good grief. I think the "muslim world" is about as backwards as humanity has got now, but even I don't speak of the Occident with that kind of rosy platitude.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:10 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

A minority of 1.5 billion.. Hmm, how much of a minority. Is CAIR moderate? That organization says it represents American muslims and is unsurprisingly an unindicted co-conspirator in the holy land terror trial, and was founded by members of the muslim brotherhood. They moderates? On any survey they would answer as "moderates", and describe themselves as such. But are they? No. Not by any reasonable definition.

So, what, 20%.. You know math. What's 20% of 1,5 billion? How many are in England. How many will be there in 30 years? How much control does that 20% have? To what extent do they shape relations between muslims and kafir in your country? See, you seem to think that I focus on all muslims as if they are radicals. As if. I focus on the large minority.

I don't think you're dumb, big bird. I think you're extremely naive, and you're suspending otherwise solid critical skills here. The key is social stability. You're missing the unhinging of social stability. This will not end well. The UK is entering what will like be a 10-15 year period of economic decline and then stagnation. How is this going to play out?

If you think I am not concerned by the spread and recruitment of groups like Hizb ut-Tahrir then you are wrong. For the last couple of decades there has been enormous recruitment effort on the part of such organisations, often bankrolled by Saudi Arabia (which has financed the spread of Wahhahism around the globe with great missionary zeal), often targetted at young muslims entering university at an age in their life when they are most vulnerable to this kind of extremist ideology. Yes, I am very concerned by that. I aslo dislike that the British Muslim Council (hailed as a moderate organisation) harbours many activists from these groups.

But I don't think that a blanket dislike of all things muslim helps matters either. I wish people would make a strong distinction between your typical muslim and the muslims who have been seduced by this very strict and violent brand of Islam. When young muslims grow up faced with this unqualified hostility against all things muslim, how do they feel? When they see themselves regularly attacked and mocked as 'barbarians' and whathaveyou, do you think they convert to judaism? Or do you think they are more likely to walk straight into the arms of their local Hizb ut-Tahrir activist centre?

Like any religion, it is the practitioners who make it ugly. The religion of Islam is a beautiful thing to behold when practised by beautiful people. Don't neglect the 80% (according to you) who practice a gentler compassionate and forgiving form Islam. Don't push the new generation right into the arms of recruiters for militant Islam. Many young girls are taking up the wearing of the veil, not because their menfolk forced them to, but in sheer defiance of people like you. Tired of seeing their culture and beliefs maligned, it's their way to say f*** you. Angry alienated youths might just say f*** you by blowing up a train. Be careful you are not part of the problem.

Many muslims are respectful of non-muslims. Why not respect them back?

CyberGuy

Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:59 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

WTF? What is with the muslim victim complex? You are aware that slavery and genocide still exist in the "muslim world" right?

Oh, I thought it was America the most notorious nation for being racist against blacks? Ironically those African slaves included a lot of Muslims and those Americans consisted mostly of Christians and some atheists.

I thought it was America where the words like "Ni**a" were invented and hence the same place they are considered offensive. If racism did not exist and slavery did not prevail in such an extreme manner in America then you wont find people so touchy about racism today.

After all, why was the election of a black president so much celebrated? It was indeed the fact the people were pleased how are they trying to get rid of RACISM against blacks in America and for the first time majority of Americans overcame it.

Need not to mention that I appreciate that people are at least trying to get rid of racism, but that does not mean America was not the biggest market for slavery based on racism in the recent past and racism still prevails here to some extent (the same reasons I explained above)

Mind it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSmr7vXUgQ

CG

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:20 am Post subject:

Quote:

Ironically those African slaves included a lot of Muslims and those Americans consisted mostly of Christians and some atheists.

The Arab slave trade of black Africans started before, and ended after the European controlled slave trade. The slave trade was abolished throughout the British Empire, in large part due to Christian reformers in the UK. Slavery in Saudi Arabia was outlawed in the 1960s, and not because they thought it was immoral, but due to pressure from the West, so save your pathetic whitewashing of Islam for naive guilt-ridden infidels who don't know any better. I'm sure Bigbird will be all ears.

Quote:

I thought it was America where the words like "Ni**a" were invented and hence the same place they are considered offensive. If racism did not exist and slavery did not prevail in such an extreme manner in America then you wont find people so touchy about racism today.

Instead of talking about America's history of slavery and civil rights abuses (which have been largely overcome) why don't we discuss the racial genocide committed by Arab Sudanese and the black Muslims of Darfur, who practice a different form of Islam and are black, not Arab, and are thus considered to be subhuman. Of course this doesn't really fit very well into the 'there is no racism in Islam' speil that people like yourself no doubt love to prattle on about, nor does the experience of Pakistanis and Africans who have experienced living in the 'cradle of Islam'. And don't try and pretend there is no Arabic word for 'nigger'. In fact, the Arab word for slave is often used as a pejorative word for black people. Lovely.

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:41 am Post subject:

Quote:

When young muslims grow up faced with this unqualified hostility against all things muslim, how do they feel? When they see themselves regularly attacked and mocked as 'barbarians' and whathaveyou, do you think they convert to judaism? Or do you think they are more likely to walk straight into the arms of their local Hizb ut-Tahrir activist centre?

But where does this 'hostility' come from? Why is there no Hinduphobia or Bhuddistophobia, or Sikhophobia in the UK? Perhaps because there have been no incidents of followers of those religions involved in terrorism in the UK, nor any cases of Sikhs or Bhuddists calling for the overthrow of democracy in the country of their birth.

Now, it may well be just a small minority actually doing these things (all opinion polls suggest many more support such things) but it does not reflect well on other Muslims, especially when there is evidence that mainstream mosques have been host to such people and that a great many Muslims schools teach the Islamic staple of infidel hatred.

Quote:

The religion of Islam is a beautiful thing to behold when practised by beautiful people.

And this week's award for meaningless platitude goes to!

Quote:

Angry alienated youths might just say f*** you by blowing up a train. Be careful you are not part of the problem.

Another of the be-nice-to-Muslims-or-they-might-blow-you-up-brigade. Doesn't your statement tell you something of the lunacy of allowing such people into the West on-masse? Perhaps it might be a good idea to leave such people, who are so fragile and potentially violent in their own nations where they can practice their 'beautiful' Islam, an Islam that can be seen in all its beauty wherever your eye may wander across the Islamic world. Ah yes, such beauty!

Quote:

Many muslims are respectful of non-muslims. Why not respect them back?

Why don't you talk to the Egyptian Coptic Christians, or Pakistani Christians about the 'respect' they receive in majority Muslim nations? Better yet, why don't you investigate the crime of apostasy, and how it is illegal to convert to another religion in many Muslim nations? Need we even look into not just Saudi, but other Gulf nations restritions on other religions. By and large, Muslims are not respectful of other religions. On the other hand, we in the West are tolerant, perhaps too tolerant of Muslims and some of the intolerant behaviour many of them often indulge in.

So, please save us your crap about how Muslims are not respected. The problem is that they have been treated with kid gloves for too long and are thus getting confident and pushy. It is time for more honesty and less 'respect'.

CyberGuy

Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:38 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

About your potty mouth over Coptic Christian's oppression, here is a video of two Egyptian Coptic Christian women who are crying and asking for help. Why? Because they converted to Islam and Egyptian government is about to arrest them and dump them back to their Coptic Christian Families so that they can punish these women for converting to Islam or forcefully convert them back to Christianity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zteTytpDVXw

Same is the myth about Pakistan which have had a Hindu as Chief Justice of Pakistan and several Christians at high posts in Government as well as in other positions in society.

They ask why did Afghans kidnapped the Korean volunteer messiahs in Afghanistan. In the following video you can see how they are brainwashing and converting the people to Christianity in the name of "food and shelter":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocPVnI_veOM

No need to mention that in African countries where people are dying of starvation, these Christian Missionaries go there luring them with food in one hand and Bible in the other. They can only get the food if they accept Jesus as their Lord.

Christianity in Iraq:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUt5zusVEp8

Of course, Fox news won't show you this.

bigverne wrote:

I thought we were talking about if Islam advocates violence and slavery? If some Muslims in Sudan are killers and the victims are also Muslims then how does it make Muslims bigoted about nonMuslims? And given that the victims are also Muslims then how does the blame come to Islam??
Pretty idiotic of you to think like that.

I expect you not to shut up as you are doing what you are born to do, that is "hate mongering".

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:30 am Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

Exactly. This isn't random.

Pluto

Joined: 19 Dec 2006

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:43 am Post subject:

So, anyways re: Geert Wilders. Should his Freedom Party win the next
election, will he still be banned from Britain even as a sitting head of
state?

WSJ interview with Mr. Wilders:

Quote:

By his own description, Geert Wilders is not a typical Dutch politician. "We are a country of consensus," he tells me on a recent Saturday morning at his midtown Manhattan hotel. "I hate consensus. I like confrontation. I am not a consensus politician. . . . This is something that is really very un-Dutch."

Yet the 45-year-old Mr. Wilders says he is the most famous politician in the Netherlands: "Everybody knows me. . . . There is no other politician -- not even the prime minister -- who is as well-known. . . . People hate me, or they love me. There's nothing in between. There is no gray area."

To his admirers, Mr. Wilders is a champion of Western values on a continent that has lost confidence in them. To his detractors, he is an anti-Islamic provocateur. Both sides have a point.

In March, Mr. Wilders released a short film called "Fitna," a harsh treatment of Islam that begins by interspersing inflammatory Quran passages with newspaper and TV clips depicting threats and acts of violent jihad. The second half of the film, titled "The Netherlands Under the Spell of Islam," warns that Holland's growing Muslim population -- which more than doubled between 1990 and 2004, to 944,000, some 5.8% of the populace -- poses a threat to the country's traditional liberal values. Under the heading, "The Netherlands in the future?!" it shows brutal images from Muslim countries: men being hanged for homosexuality, a beheaded woman, another woman apparently undergoing genital mutilation.

Making such a film, Mr. Wilders knew, was a dangerous act. In November 2004, Theo van Gogh was assassinated on an Amsterdam street in retaliation for directing a film called "Submission" about Islam's treatment of women. The killer, Mohammed Bouyeri, left a letter on van Gogh's body threatening Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the film's writer and narrator.

Ms. Hirsi Ali, born in Somalia, had renounced Islam and been elected to the Dutch Parliament, where she was an ally of Mr. Wilders. Both belonged to the center-right People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, known by the Dutch acronym VVD. Both took a hard line on what they saw as an overly accommodationist policy toward the Netherlands' Muslim minority. They argued that radical imams "should be stripped of their nationality," that their mosques should be closed, and that "we should be strong in defending the rights of women," Mr. Wilders tells me.

This made them dissenters within the VVD. "We got into trouble every week," Mr. Wilders recalls. "We were like children going to their parents if they did something wrong, because every week they hassled us. . . . We really didn't care what anybody said. If the factional leadership said, 'Well, you cannot go to this TV program,' for us it was an incentive to go, not not to go. So we were a little bit of two mavericks, rebels if you like."

Mr. Wilders finally quit the party over its support for opening negotiations to admit Turkey into the European Union. That was in September 2004. "Two months later, Theo van Gogh was killed, and the whole world changed," says Mr. Wilders. He and Ms. Hirsi Ali both went into hiding; he still travels with bodyguards. After a VVD rival threatened to strip Ms. Hirsi Ali's citizenship over misstatements on her 1992 asylum application, she left Parliament and took a fellowship at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. Mr. Wilders stayed on and formed the Party for Freedom, or PVV. In 2006 it became Parliament's fifth-largest party, with nine seats in the 150-member lower chamber.

Having his own party liberates Mr. Wilders to speak his mind. As he sees it, the West suffers from an excess of toleration for those who do not share its tradition of tolerance. "We believe that -- 'we' means the political elite -- that all cultures are equal," he says. "I believe this is the biggest disease today facing Europe. . . . We should wake up and tell ourselves: You're not a xenophobe, you're not a racist, you're not a crazy guy if you say, 'My culture is better than yours.' A culture based on Christianity, Judaism, humanism is better. Look at how we treat women, look at how we treat apostates, look at how we go with the separation of church and state. I can give you 500 examples why our culture is better."

He acknowledges that "the majority of Muslims in Europe and America are not terrorists or violent people." But he says "it really doesn't matter that much, because if you don't define your own culture as the best, dominant one, and you allow through immigration people from those countries to come in, at the end of the day you will lose your own identity and your own culture, and your society will change. And our freedom will change -- all the freedoms we have will change."

The murder of van Gogh lends credence to this warning, as does the Muhammad cartoon controversy of 2005 in Denmark. As for "Fitna," it has not occasioned a violent response, but its foes have made efforts to suppress it. A Dutch Muslim organization went to court seeking to enjoin its release on the ground that, in Mr. Wilders's words, "it's not in the interest of Dutch security." The plaintiffs also charged Mr. Wilders with blasphemy and inciting hatred. Mr. Wilders thought the argument frivolous, but decided to pre-empt it: "The day before the verdict, I broadcasted ['Fitna'] . . . not because I was not confident in the outcome, but I thought: I'm not taking any chance, I'm doing it. And it was legal, because there was not a verdict yet." The judge held that the national-security claim was moot and ruled in Mr. Wilders's favor on the issues of blasphemy and incitement.

Dutch television stations had balked at broadcasting the film, and satellite companies refused to carry it even for a fee. So Mr. Wilders released it online. The British video site LiveLeak.com soon pulled the film, citing "threats to our staff of a very serious nature," but put it back online a few days later. ("Fitna" is still available on LiveLeak, as well as on other sites such as YouTube and Google Video.)

An organization called The Netherlands Shows Its Colors filed a criminal complaint against Mr. Wilders for "inciting hatred." In June, Dutch prosecutors declined to pursue the charge, saying in a statement: "That comments are hurtful and offensive for a large number of Muslims does not mean that they are punishable." The group is appealing the prosecutors' decision.

In July, a Jordanian prosecutor, acting on a complaint from a pressure group there, charged Mr. Wilders with blasphemy and other crimes. The Netherlands has no extradition treaty with Jordan, but Mr. Wilders worries -- and the head of the group that filed the complaint has boasted -- that the indictment could restrict his ability to travel. Mr. Wilders says he does not visit a foreign country without receiving an assurance that he will not be arrested and extradited.

"The principle is not me -- it's not about Geert Wilders," he says. "If you look at the press and the rest of the political elite in the Netherlands, nobody cares. Nobody gives a damn. This is the worst thing, maybe. . . . A nondemocratic country cannot use the international or domestic legal system to silence you. . . . If this starts, we can get rid of all parliaments, and we should close down every newspaper, and we should shut up and all pray to Mecca five times a day."

It is difficult to fault Mr. Wilders's impassioned defense of free speech. And although the efforts to silence him via legal harassment have proved far from successful, he rightly points out that they could have a chilling effect, deterring others from speaking out.

Mr. Wilders's views on Islam, though, are problematic. Since 9/11, American political leaders have struggled with the question of how to describe the ideology of the enemy without making enemies of the world's billion or so Muslims. The various terms they have tried -- "Islamic extremism," "Islamism," "Islamofascism" -- have fallen short of both clarity and melioration. Melioration is not Mr. Wilders's highest priority, and to him the truth couldn't be clearer: The problem is Islam itself. "I see Islam more as an ideology than as a religion," he explains.

His own view of Islam is a fundamentalist one: "According to the Quran, there are no moderate Muslims. It's not Geert Wilders who's saying that, it's the Quran . . . saying that. It's many imams in the world who decide that. It's the people themselves who speak about it and talk about the terrible things -- the genital mutilation, the honor killings. This is all not Geert Wilders, but those imams themselves who say this is the best way of Islam."

Yet he insists that his antagonism toward Islam reflects no antipathy toward Muslims: "I make a distinction between the ideology . . . and the people. . . . There are people who call themselves Muslims and don't subscribe to the full part of the Quran. And those people, of course, we should invest [in], we should talk to." He says he would end Muslim immigration to the Netherlands but work to assimilate those already there.

His idea of how to do so, however, seems unlikely to win many converts: "You have to give up this stupid, fascist book" -- the Quran. "This is what you have to do. You have to give up that book."

Mr. Wilders is right to call for a vigilant defense of liberal principles. A society has a right, indeed a duty, to require that religious minorities comply with secular rules of civilized behavior. But to demand that they renounce their religious identity and holy books is itself an affront to liberal principles.

Axl Rose

Joined: 16 Feb 2006

Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

But I don't think that a blanket dislike of all things muslim helps matters either. I wish people would make a strong distinction between your typical muslim and the muslims who have been seduced by this very strict and violent brand of Islam. When young muslims grow up faced with this unqualified hostility against all things muslim, how do they feel? When they see themselves regularly attacked and mocked as 'barbarians' and whathaveyou, do you think they convert to judaism? Or do you think they are more likely to walk straight into the arms of their local Hizb ut-Tahrir activist centre?

Don't neglect the 80% (according to you) who practice a gentler compassionate and forgiving form Islam. Don't push the new generation right into the arms of recruiters for militant Islam. Many young girls are taking up the wearing of the veil, not because their menfolk forced them to, but in sheer defiance of people like you. Tired of seeing their culture and beliefs maligned, it's their way to say f*** you. Angry alienated youths might just say f*** you by blowing up a train. Be careful you are not part of the problem.

This is just brilliant.

You're saying "don't criticize Muslim violence lest you become a victim of retaliatory Muslim violence".

The tragic thing is, you're absolutely right. Should've told it to Theo Van Gogh. Might've saved a life. He made a movie about Muslim violence and was murdered by an Islamic extremist for his trouble. Someone should make a movie about Muslim irony, or the complete lack thereof.

Big Bird wrote:

Like any religion, it is the practitioners who make it ugly. The religion of Islam is a beautiful thing to behold when practised by beautiful people.

There's no such thing as a beautiful religion, and even if there were, Islam would not qualify in a quadrillion years. Muslims are 22% f the world population and produce less than 5% of world GDP. 50% of Arab women cannot read. 20% of Arabs live on less than $2 per day. Only 1% of the Arab population has a personal computer, and only 0.5% use the Internet. 15% of the Arab workforce is unemployed, and this number could double by 2010. The average growth rate of the per capita income during the preceding 20 years in the Arab world was only 0.5% per annum, worse than anywhere but sub-Saharan Africa. At least 6 of the poorest of the poor are countries with a Muslim majority. 57 Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each (India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758). There are 230 scientists per one million Muslims (the US has 4,099 per million, Japan has 5,095 per million). 6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read.

Islam is to intelligence what garlic is to vampires and, hence, I absolutely fail to see any justification for calling it a beautiful religion under any but the most absurd and fantastical circumstances.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject:

CyberGuy wrote:

P.S. Right of free speech does not justify a person's crappy talk in a silent classroom. Hence, noise makers must shut up than being free-speech masturbators.

I missed this from page 2.

This is why I've never accepted the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" restriction on free speech. As we can see, this leads to certain types saying yelling fire = criticizing islam and in a crowded theater = all situations.

Unacceptable. Totally unacceptable.

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