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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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 Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| ohahakehte wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| 2.Maybe they would have a state of their own if Arafat didn't dismiss decent Prime Ministers like Mahmoud Abbas, and fail to control Hamas. (that peace loving organisation.) |
arafat didn't dismiss him. he resigned because his role was a joke. if theres any doubt about that consider his title - the "appointed Prime Minister" of the Palestinians, appointed by israel and the US |
Wrong. He was constructively dismissed. He was making progress with Israel, and terrorists like Arafat were concerned that should Abbas broker a peace deal, then his own popularity might suffer. Only a moron would argue otherwise. |
"constructively dismissed"? "making progress with israel"? my goodness! oh my mistake, you're getting your information from the widely read and highly respected Things I Wish Happened by Gwangjuboy. excuse me.
*please* show me what "progress" abbas was making with israel, *please*, i cant wait to hear this. just so you know how im taking this all in, keep in mind that if abbas ran for head of the PLO in a general election of the palestinians, he would receive about 3% support. oh, i almost forgot, 3% is 97% less than 100%. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| nolin nae wrote: |
| to cite chomsky (who's from my hometown, the "city of brotherly love") and michael moore (the two should never be used in the same sentence again) merely provides evidence that america is strong because we have dissenting voices that are heard and appreciated by millions and who make americans aware of what can happen if you don't pay attention. |
"evidence that america is strong"? *now* who's being simplistic? and i suppose you're saying that because i implied that america is "weak"?
btw, i completely agree that freedom of speech in america is a great achievement. however, to cite chomsky again and to repeat what i said before, america is disproportionately indoctrinated and ignorant as against their power and influence.
| nolin nae wrote: |
| and why do you think chomsky and moore chose to focus on america and americans. because the issues they discuss only happen in america? or because they're american and american issues resonate on an international scale, unlike issues in other countries? i think you know the answer. to wit, michael moore is a comedian. |
well, because your statements here are convoluted, ill answer your own question for you: moore and chomsky deal with american issues because they're american and know american culture best and feel they should deal with their closest responsibilities as americans first. michael moore's a comedian? thanks for the update.
| nolin nae wrote: |
| you don't see why i'm getting "so worked up" because you're canadian and you've been indocrinated into a culture where blaming all the world problems on america is a daily event. |
that would be the canada north of the USA which has ottawa as its capital?
oh okay. well, next time im there ill look into this "blaming all the world problems on america is a daily event" thing. news to me though.
| nolin nae wrote: |
but when you come on this board i'll call you on it every time. from now on, you're going to have to substantiate those beliefs that you thought everyone just took as common knowledge. welcome to the world outside of canada! |
look out! i apologize in advance for not being jingoistic enough for you. must be my canadian indoctrination or something. forgive me. |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| ohahakehte wrote: |
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| 2.Maybe they would have a state of their own if Arafat didn't dismiss decent Prime Ministers like Mahmoud Abbas, and fail to control Hamas. (that peace loving organisation.) |
arafat didn't dismiss him. he resigned because his role was a joke. if theres any doubt about that consider his title - the "appointed Prime Minister" of the Palestinians, appointed by israel and the US |
Wrong. He was constructively dismissed. He was making progress with Israel, and terrorists like Arafat were concerned that should Abbas broker a peace deal, then his own popularity might suffer. Only a moron would argue otherwise. |
"constructively dismissed"? "making progress with israel"? my goodness! oh my mistake, you're getting your information from the widely read and highly respected Things I Wish Happened by Gwangjuboy. excuse me.
*please* show me what "progress" abbas was making with israel, *please*, i cant wait to hear this. just so you know how im taking this all in, keep in mind that if abbas ran for head of the PLO in a general election of the palestinians, he would receive about 3% support. oh, i almost forgot, 3% is 97% less than 100%. |
Sharon would have done "business" with him. He won't do any with Arafat. And quite frankly, who can blame him? |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| ohahakehte wrote: |
| i cant wait to hear this. just so you know how im taking this all in, keep in mind that if abbas ran for head of the PLO in a general election of the palestinians, he would receive about 3% support. oh, i almost forgot, 3% is 97% less than 100%. |
That is wrong. Quite clearly, you haven't refered to Hamas, and other militant groups. You also ignore the deep entrenchment in Palestinian politics. The political position of the PLO has rarely changed. Their Israeli counterparts have VOTED in governments of the right and left. The Palestinians just don't want to try a different flavour. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Sharon would have done "business" with him. He won't do any with Arafat. And quite frankly, who can blame him? |
on what evidence do you suggest that sharon "would have done business" with Abbas? id like to hear it. the one piece of evidence i can give for that, which hardly marks abbas as an honest and courageous fighter for the rights of his people, is that sharon would have jumped for joy if Abbas would have agreed to be the palestinian leader of an impoverished palestinian bantustan split into three chunks in the west bank with no control over water or resources, among other deficiencies. sharon would do business with anyone that would agree to his terms. but even the clumsy and irrelevant Abbas was uncomfortable with most of sharon's apocalyptic visions for the future. anyway, i dont care for any leader that sharon would take seriously. sharon is a horrible man.
you're quite right that sharon won't touch arafat with a ten foot pole. the reasons for this are mixed, but its not because arafat is a big old meanie or because sharon commands respect and a peaceful nature from those he negotiates with. this article by israeli linguist and political activist Tanya Reinhart is illuminating on why sharon won't talk to arafat: http://www.nthposition.com/fieldofthorns.php
its the same reason why the apartheid leadership in south africa branded the ANC as a "communist terrorist" organization with whom they could not dialogue. surely that was because the ANC was a bunch of violent pinkos and *not* because they had the support of most of the black south african population.
as ive said before, im no fan of arafat, but perhaps its useful to distinguish b/w arafat the man and arafat the symbol. the man is a disaster. a dictator, a sellout, a buffoon with diplomacy, etc, i doubt theres much disagreement between us there. arafat the symbol is different. for all of his very serious faults, he might be the reason why the world even knows about palestinians today. the image of the kaffiyeh-clad arafat flashing the victory sign has become the emblem of the palestinian cause and the world has recognized it for decades. but its a terrible shame that the symbol and the substance of the person aren't one and the same, the way it is with nelson mandela. |
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ohahakehte
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The State of Denial
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| ohahakehte wrote: |
| i cant wait to hear this. just so you know how im taking this all in, keep in mind that if abbas ran for head of the PLO in a general election of the palestinians, he would receive about 3% support. oh, i almost forgot, 3% is 97% less than 100%. |
That is wrong. |
evidence?
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| Quite clearly, you haven't refered to Hamas, and other militant groups. |
hamas? what do you want me to say about them? that its groups like them and islamic jihad that are becoming the most popular among west bank and gaza palestinians? that the PLO is afraid that if elections were held they would be kicked out of office and someone from hamas voted in? that the PLO knows that most palestinians see arafat and PA as bumbling sellouts and see hamas and others as the most representative of their grassroots concerns? its all true. but i dont see what it has to do with abbas.
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| You also ignore the deep entrenchment in Palestinian politics. The political position of the PLO has rarely changed. Their Israeli counterparts have VOTED in governments of the right and left. The Palestinians just don't want to try a different flavour. |
no, this is all wrong.
first of all, tell me about the "deep entrechment in Palestinian politics."
tell me about the political position of the PLO having rarely changed.
tell me about how and why the palestinians "just don't want to try a different flavour" (btw, i guess you know this because you've spent years working both with average palestinians and israelis and you know them inside out, right?) |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hank Scorpio wrote: |
| ohahakehte wrote: |
| but its certainly true that Bush and others are exploiting the humanitarian and human rights abuses of the north for their own ends, as if thats why Bush and Cheney hate NK so much. |
Umm, yeah, in a nutshell that is why Bush and Cheney hate NK so much. If our stated position of opposing Orwellian hermit states that employ reeduction camps, starvation as a weapon, threatening their neighbors, and proliferation of nukes doesn't go down smooth with the rest of the world, then sorry, screw the rest of the world. |
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah......the truuuuth. |
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