|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: Don�t Be Like the West |
 |
|
By Haydn Sennitt.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/upload/news/haydn_senitt.jpg
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2009/04/137_43476.html
| Quote: |
I've been living in Seoul now for the past year after moving here from Australia with my Korean wife and baby and I've found it interesting how much Koreans are trying to be like Americans.
One fine example of this is the number of coffee shops and fast food restaurants that have sprung up. When I came here in 2006 there were fewer outlets of Starbucks, McDonald's and Dominos. These days, they're everywhere in Seoul and Gyeonggi Province.
I've noticed that Koreans won't have their coffee just anywhere, it has to be in a place that's expensive, exclusive and ``Western." To be seen in Korea with a Starbucks coffee is associated with America and the Western image. To make others take notice of you, be envious of you, and stand out from all the others here with black hair and similar talent, you have to look western.
In a country like South Korea that is ``obsessed" with image, it's not all that surprising that Koreans are doing this. What surprises me is how much they want to be like the west. It's as if being Korean isn't good enough, so people watch ``quality" American shows like CSI and Sex and the City, and try to dress like Americans. Hence the hideous bow tie is reaping havoc all around the city with a fury I've not seen in a while.
The trend towards all things American, though, is not all good. America itself is not the land that it purports to be: In its Declaration of Independence, America's founding fathers announced the country to be a project of pursuing happiness. How interesting it is, though, that today happiness is one thing that fewer Americans are experiencing.
According to one study mentioned by TV network CNN, the top-selling prescription drugs in the United States in the year 2007 were anti-depressants, equating to sales for approximately 118 million people, which is up by 48 percent from 1995 to 2002. According to the study, 25 percent of adults in the US have had a major depressive episode, and 8 percent of American adolescents have experienced the same. That's not a picture of joy, happiness and satisfaction.
That's mental health alone. To make matters worse, family dysfunction, divorce, single-parent households, homosexuality, crime, drug use and other anti-social behavior are increasing in many western nations ― even Australia and Britain.
Don't mistake me: There are many things in western countries, such as multicultural diversity, respect of the individual and creativity that are noticeably missing in Asian countries such as Korea. But whenever adopting a new way of doing things, one must always be shrewd about choosing wisely. The Latin phrase, ``caveat emptor", is a helpful one: It means ``the buyer beware." Before Koreans buy into all things American, they need to find out if the big juicy apple they're about to eat is full of worms or sweetness.
Since I've lived in Seoul, I've not really gone out of my way to meet westerners here. For one thing, many of them grumble incessantly (and needlessly) about Korea and make no attempt to learn the language or meet the locals. None of them want to contribute to the country, they just want to make a buck, pay back their debts at home, have sex with as many women as they can and add them to their ``trophy" collection, and then move onto the next country.
I've had the displeasure of hearing the most vile and despicable conversations at work, where North Americans talk about all the women they've slept with in Korea. They're sleazebags who don't even have the dignity to call their ex-lovers ``women." Instead, they call them ``sluts" and believe that Asian women are loose and ``dirty." These guys are highly educated, friendly and come from both the city and the country. They're black and white and some are even ``gyomin." They have an attitude of invade, rape, and pillage that makes me embarrassed to call myself a westerner, and being alone is preferable to being friends with people like that.
I'm not suggesting here that Americans are any worse than Australians, or worse than Koreans. Most of my close friends here in Seoul are American Christians who really love and respect Korean people, but I'm finding that such people are as easy to find as pure diamonds.
Fifty years ago, Americans were very much like Korea in its ``innocence," but since the sexual revolution of the 1960s the tables turned. Countries like my homeland are saturated with American culture, and in the last 20 years it hasn't borne very good fruit.
A tree is known by its fruit: If the apples from an apple tree are rotten, then the tree is diseased. Koreans need to take that to heart before buying into something they're largely ignorant of.
The writer is an Australian English teacher and writer and lives in Seoul. He can be contacted at [email protected]. |
And there you have it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
That's mental health alone. To make matters worse, family dysfunction, divorce, single-parent households, homosexuality, crime, drug use and other anti-social behavior are increasing in many western nations ― even Australia and Britain.
|
| Quote: |
Fifty years ago, Americans were very much like Korea in its ``innocence," but since the sexual revolution of the 1960s the tables turned. Countries like my homeland are saturated with American culture, and in the last 20 years it hasn't borne very good fruit.
|
This view is in some contrast to left-wing acquaintances of mine in Canada, who insist that the fundamentalist Christians in "AmeriKKKa" are imposing sexual repression upon the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Not much to say, unless of course I ran into the guy on the street, in which case I'd have a lot to say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He's making shit up. What guy, even me, is going to sleep with a woman he thinks is dirty? 
If he wants to have a Korean wife and have kids, that's cool. He has my support. But if he thinks most Koreans would rather the Western men all marry Korean women and make mixed babies with them instead of just having girlfriends or hitting the barbershop and not marrying/reproducing, he's probably wrong.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The writer of the article is a dope. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
His baseless generalization to word ratio is pretty high.
Also, homosexuality is anti-social behavior? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Robot_Teacher
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Robotting Around the World
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| quote wrote: |
| The trend towards all things American, though, is not all good. America itself is not the land that it purports to be: In its Declaration of Independence, America's founding fathers announced the country to be a project of pursuing happiness. How interesting it is, though, that today happiness is one thing that fewer Americans are experiencing. |
OK, this drivel is to demonstrate what went wrong with this idea. Touchy feely topic. Minus what we might think of the quoted author of OP's quoted article.
The ideas of America are very attractive to most everyone in the world. The freedom to pursue happiness through choosing employment, investing, and possibly gaining upward social mobility is a great concept in theory, but this freedom brings many problems as not everyone can be entrepreneurs, educated, and qualified to get into a career offering a lifetime of stable employment nor are most companies offering these long term decent paying jobs today like in grandpas day. He was a well paid cog in the great scheme of building fighter jet planes while grandma built bombs in WWI(Rosie the riveter), but like any rich kid, my mom just blew it all and never worked a day in her life while never having to do anything, but get married and have kids. Grandpa worked in a plane factory and also ran a heating and air conditioning biz on the side and was a workaholic. Upon his death, mom just became a major doctor shopping drug addict with the inheritance; blowing millions of dollars before medical offices became computerized. Even taking the investments my grandpa left me, because he wanted me to have a good start in life when I turned 18. Within 3 years of grandpas death, we were poor as dirt with my parents unemployable due to being college drop outs with no work history. This happened in millions of families and killed the American dream for many. While my family became dysfunctional, and parents divorced with 2 brothers and 1 sister quitting high school, I still put my self through college using debt and Army GI bill in attempt to get in the money through a good paying career on the idea of freedom to pursue happiness through seeking any kind of education and work I wanted to do, but the reality is on the contrary. In today's economy, you need connections or inheritance to propel yourself higher; not just excellent soft skills, personality, and motivation.
For example, my best friends dad retired as a bank president who had started as a bank teller in his youth. Because my friends dad has big money and connections in high places, he paid my friends college, and put him into a real estate appraisal biz netting him $8,000 to $10,000 a month. I introduced my friend to my sister 10 years ago and they got married. My high school drop out ex meth addict sister is one lucky woman today. This marriage took her from being a failure to a success in life and allowed her to be a great mother to 2 lovely, but spoiled kids who won't work, but are now almost graduating high school. The girl is a smart straight A student, but the boy is a long haired drug addict living with his dad and can't hold a job, but is due to graduate high school next month.
The idea of being free to pursue happiness through working made me start working out of instinct at a very young age. I really got out there and talked to everyone and just loved it. Starting in 3rd grade, I went to work self employed when not at school mowing lawns, snow shoveling, tilling gardens, planting, weeding gardens, trimming trees, helping old people, and selling lost golf balls. The golf ball gig last 3 years while I lived near a course for 3 years and netted me $20 to $40 after school and over $100 on sunny weekend days. Not bad for a poor elementary school boy, but I blew it due to not knowing anything about money nor having any one teach me, but I didn't talk about my work and money with anyone. People wondered how I played so many video games, had candy, got fat, had clothing, and plenty of school supplies, but couldn't say anything as I was not a thief like my brother. My parents never knew as they just let me run free on my own all I wanted since I was 5.
Everyone can NOT be self led as they're born followers, but many need guidance and administration of their work, living, and lifestyle. The idea of being an individual free to dress and reinvent ones self is also attractive, but not everyone are born leaders who can master this. The idea to be free to choose your lifestyle and partner is also attractive vs. falling into a caste where your wife is chosen for you. These very ideas are what sold America to the world and still what the world envies and imitates about our culture.
Only those with leadership qualities, determination, and motivation can succeed unless inheriting money or job. And then in todays environment, even smart educated professionals demonstrating leadership qualities are struggling as they can't find suitable employment or don't have the money to invest to gain self employment. Debt is not the answer unless it's used to effectively grow a business and buy only enough house you can swallow. We should NOT be offered debt as the means of the opportunity to live middle class like it's been for quite some time, we should be offered jobs in companies that develop us for long term careers like it once was. In grandpas day, the American dream was very much alive as you stayed in the same company all your career while they developed you as a valued asset of the company. This is what allowed America to invent many great things like the jet plane and great corporations. Executive greed got out of control and the Federal Reserve bankrupted us.
The world is not following America's footsteps when it comes to monetary policy, but they're supporting America's fall by lending our government the money to conquer other lands and socializing executive pay to unqualified greedy corrupt individuals operating in secrecy behind closed doors doing a terrible job not in the best interest of the country as they line their pockets. This is majorly undermining Americans opportunity at the pursuit of happiness.
The world is only following our culture of individual freedom, fashion, and entertainment as well as entreprenuerism. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Haha - what a wanker. The writer of the article, that is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Don�t Be Like the West |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I've been living in Seoul now for the past year after moving here from Australia with my Korean wife and baby and I've found it interesting how much Koreans are trying to be like Americans. |
How? By sitting in chairs?
| Quote: |
| One fine example of this is the number of coffee shops and fast food restaurants that have sprung up. When I came here in 2006 there were fewer outlets of Starbucks, McDonald's and Dominos. These days, they're everywhere in Seoul and Gyeonggi Province. |
This irks me too. Koreans should really stick to Dabangs.
| Quote: |
In a country like South Korea that is ``obsessed" with image, it's not all that surprising that Koreans are doing this. What surprises me is how much they want to be like the west. It's as if being Korean isn't good enough, so people watch ``quality" American shows like CSI and Sex and the City, and try to dress like Americans. Hence the hideous bow tie is reaping havoc all around the city with a fury I've not seen in a while. |
Who on CSI or Sex in the City wears a bow tie? What's reaping havoc is that damn 'flower boy' haircut.
| Quote: |
| The trend towards all things American, though, is not all good. |
So the coffee and bow tie were good things?
| Quote: |
| America itself is not the land that it purports to be: In its Declaration of Independence, America's founding fathers announced the country to be a project of pursuing happiness. How interesting it is, though, that today happiness is one thing that fewer Americans are experiencing. |
Show me a Korean American who would have preferred to have grown up here.
| Quote: |
| According to one study mentioned by TV network CNN, the top-selling prescription drugs in the United States in the year 2007 were anti-depressants, equating to sales for approximately 118 million people, which is up by 48 percent from 1995 to 2002. According to the study, 25 percent of adults in the US have had a major depressive episode, and 8 percent of American adolescents have experienced the same. That's not a picture of joy, happiness and satisfaction. |
Neither is a high school kid jumping out of a 14th floor window.
| Quote: |
| That's mental health alone. To make matters worse, family dysfunction, divorce, single-parent households, homosexuality, crime, drug use and other anti-social behavior are increasing in many western nations ― even Australia and Britain. |
And in Korea these trends are down? Or going up because of Sex and the City?
| Quote: |
| Don't mistake me: There are many things in western countries, such as multicultural diversity, respect of the individual and creativity that are noticeably missing in Asian countries such as Korea. But whenever adopting a new way of doing things, one must always be shrewd about choosing wisely. The Latin phrase, ``caveat emptor", is a helpful one: It means ``the buyer beware." Before Koreans buy into all things American, they need to find out if the big juicy apple they're about to eat is full of worms or sweetness. |
Has this person actually spoken to any Koreans? They aren't that blind to the negatives of western society.
| Quote: |
| Since I've lived in Seoul, I've not really gone out of my way to meet westerners here. For one thing, many of them grumble incessantly (and needlessly) about Korea and make no attempt to learn the language or meet the locals. None of them want to contribute to the country, they just want to make a buck, pay back their debts at home, have sex with as many women as they can and add them to their ``trophy" collection, and then move onto the next country. |
This person is a westerner, they must be the only person contributing to Korea, I see.
| Quote: |
| I've had the displeasure of hearing the most vile and despicable conversations at work, where North Americans talk about all the women they've slept with in Korea. |
I've some very close female Korean friends, you should hear what they say about foreigners.
| Quote: |
| I'm not suggesting here that Americans are any worse than Australians, or worse than Koreans. Most of my close friends here in Seoul are American Christians who really love and respect Korean people, but I'm finding that such people are as easy to find as pure diamonds. |
Since you don't go out of your way to find these diamonds I understand
| Quote: |
| Fifty years ago, Americans were very much like Korea in its ``innocence," but since the sexual revolution of the 1960s the tables turned. Countries like my homeland are saturated with American culture, and in the last 20 years it hasn't borne very good fruit. |
Damn that sexual revolution with it's equal rights and exposure of abuse. Best stick to a society where 5% of the GDP is through the sex industry.
| Quote: |
A tree is known by its fruit: If the apples from an apple tree are rotten, then the tree is diseased. Koreans need to take that to heart before buying into something they're largely ignorant of.
|
Hmm...do you like fishsticks? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chet Wautlands
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Don�t Be Like the West |
|
|
| ED209 wrote: |
| Hmm...do you like fishsticks? |
Love 'em! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Don�t Be Like the West |
|
|
| ED209 wrote: |
| Quote: |
A tree is known by its fruit: If the apples from an apple tree are rotten, then the tree is diseased. Koreans need to take that to heart before buying into something they're largely ignorant of.
|
Hmm...do you like fishsticks? |
I like rotten soy beans. Especially when they are made into the fabulous, cancer-preventing 청국장! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lostone7
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Location: SE Asia
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| Not much to say, unless of course I ran into the guy on the street, in which case I'd have a lot to say. |
I agree I think he just got beat down to much at home...........so he comes here and think his K-wife and his year stay make him Korean lol
silly silly boy...........boy does he have a hard awaking coming lol |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wrote my response earlier here on this site:
| Quote: |
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=201326
Some of my thoughts on the article...
| Quote: |
I've been living in Seoul now for the past year after moving here from Australia with my Korean wife and baby and I've found it interesting how much Koreans are trying to be like Americans.
One fine example of this is the number of coffee shops and fast food restaurants that have sprung up. When I came here in 2006 there were fewer outlets of Starbucks, McDonald's and Dominos. These days, they're everywhere in Seoul and Gyeonggi Province. |
There are also more 'Kimbap Jung-guks' around as well. Things get popular, then they die off - it's called a free market. Coffee - the expensive kind - has really taken off in the last few years. I'm not really sure how that is being 'Western'. Koreans, for as long as I have know them, have been drinking coffee - heck, in nearly every little restaurant there's a coffee machine for having coffee after a meal.
| Quote: |
| I've noticed that Koreans won't have their coffee just anywhere, it has to be in a place that's expensive, exclusive and ``Western." To be seen in Korea with a Starbucks coffee is associated with America and the Western image. To make others take notice of you, be envious of you, and stand out from all the others here with black hair and similar talent, you have to look western. |
The author needs to take his head out of his @$$. Koreans have coffee all over the place. As I said previously, there are numerous coffee machines in most restaurants. As well, coffee shops in hotels are an extremely popular place for Korean business people to meet.
| Quote: |
| In a country like South Korea that is ``obsessed" with image, it's not all that surprising that Koreans are doing this. What surprises me is how much they want to be like the west. It's as if being Korean isn't good enough, so people watch ``quality" American shows like CSI and Sex and the City, and try to dress like Americans. Hence the hideous bow tie is reaping havoc all around the city with a fury I've not seen in a while. |
WTF? What bow tie? I've yet to see it.
| Quote: |
| The trend towards all things American, though, is not all good. America itself is... |
Oh boo hoo. America is this, America isn't that. I'm not American, but I'm tired of pseudo-intellectuals trying to legitimize their argument by jumping on an established band wagon.
| Quote: |
| Since I've lived in Seoul, I've not really gone out of my way to meet westerners here. For one thing, many of them grumble incessantly (and needlessly) about Korea and make no attempt to learn the language or meet the locals. None of them want to contribute to the country, they just want to make a buck, pay back their debts at home, have sex with as many women as they can and add them to their ``trophy" collection, and then move onto the next country. |
It's funny, but I agree yet disagree with him. I don't go out of my way to meet Westerners either... I simply meet people who come across my path. But for him to go on about how none of them want to contribute to Korea... well, he's showing his ignorance right there.
| Quote: |
| I've had the displeasure of hearing the most vile and despicable conversations at work, where North Americans talk about all the women they've slept with in Korea. They're sleazebags who don't even have the dignity to call their ex-lovers ``women." Instead, they call them ``sluts" and believe that Asian women are loose and ``dirty." These guys are highly educated, friendly and come from both the city and the country. They're black and white and some are even ``gyomin." They have an attitude of invade, rape, and pillage that makes me embarrassed to call myself a westerner, and being alone is preferable to being friends with people like that. |
Um... have you never sat around with guys back home? Have you ever hung out with guys in various countries. Like it or not, a certain segment of guys will view women this way - it's not an exclusively Western trait.
Yet another foreigner trying to get his message published by writing absurd generalizations.
BTW, check out his email addy - seems to have a lot in common with that moron Theisson. |
But you might find reading the guy's blog explanation.. interesting - http://www.giraffepen.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vampirepirate01
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Location: Incheon, Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
" A tree is known by its fruit: If the apples from an apple tree are rotten, then the tree is diseased. Koreans need to take that to heart before buying into something they're largely ignorant of. "
Not exactly true. Usually a fruit is rotten because of over exposure to the elements, or time away from the tree. Of course then there is the possibility that the fruit was mishandled by people in the produce industry. In all scenarios the tree is just peachy. ( no pun intended) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
I wrote my response earlier here on this site:
| Quote: |
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=201326
Some of my thoughts on the article...
| Quote: |
I've been living in Seoul now for the past year after moving here from Australia with my Korean wife and baby and I've found it interesting how much Koreans are trying to be like Americans.
One fine example of this is the number of coffee shops and fast food restaurants that have sprung up. When I came here in 2006 there were fewer outlets of Starbucks, McDonald's and Dominos. These days, they're everywhere in Seoul and Gyeonggi Province. |
There are also more 'Kimbap Jung-guks' around as well. Things get popular, then they die off - it's called a free market. Coffee - the expensive kind - has really taken off in the last few years. I'm not really sure how that is being 'Western'. Koreans, for as long as I have know them, have been drinking coffee - heck, in nearly every little restaurant there's a coffee machine for having coffee after a meal.
| Quote: |
| I've noticed that Koreans won't have their coffee just anywhere, it has to be in a place that's expensive, exclusive and ``Western." To be seen in Korea with a Starbucks coffee is associated with America and the Western image. To make others take notice of you, be envious of you, and stand out from all the others here with black hair and similar talent, you have to look western. |
The author needs to take his head out of his @$$. Koreans have coffee all over the place. As I said previously, there are numerous coffee machines in most restaurants. As well, coffee shops in hotels are an extremely popular place for Korean business people to meet.
| Quote: |
| In a country like South Korea that is ``obsessed" with image, it's not all that surprising that Koreans are doing this. What surprises me is how much they want to be like the west. It's as if being Korean isn't good enough, so people watch ``quality" American shows like CSI and Sex and the City, and try to dress like Americans. Hence the hideous bow tie is reaping havoc all around the city with a fury I've not seen in a while. |
WTF? What bow tie? I've yet to see it.
| Quote: |
| The trend towards all things American, though, is not all good. America itself is... |
Oh boo hoo. America is this, America isn't that. I'm not American, but I'm tired of pseudo-intellectuals trying to legitimize their argument by jumping on an established band wagon.
| Quote: |
| Since I've lived in Seoul, I've not really gone out of my way to meet westerners here. For one thing, many of them grumble incessantly (and needlessly) about Korea and make no attempt to learn the language or meet the locals. None of them want to contribute to the country, they just want to make a buck, pay back their debts at home, have sex with as many women as they can and add them to their ``trophy" collection, and then move onto the next country. |
It's funny, but I agree yet disagree with him. I don't go out of my way to meet Westerners either... I simply meet people who come across my path. But for him to go on about how none of them want to contribute to Korea... well, he's showing his ignorance right there.
| Quote: |
| I've had the displeasure of hearing the most vile and despicable conversations at work, where North Americans talk about all the women they've slept with in Korea. They're sleazebags who don't even have the dignity to call their ex-lovers ``women." Instead, they call them ``sluts" and believe that Asian women are loose and ``dirty." These guys are highly educated, friendly and come from both the city and the country. They're black and white and some are even ``gyomin." They have an attitude of invade, rape, and pillage that makes me embarrassed to call myself a westerner, and being alone is preferable to being friends with people like that. |
Um... have you never sat around with guys back home? Have you ever hung out with guys in various countries. Like it or not, a certain segment of guys will view women this way - it's not an exclusively Western trait.
Yet another foreigner trying to get his message published by writing absurd generalizations.
BTW, check out his email addy - seems to have a lot in common with that moron Theisson. |
But you might find reading the guy's blog explanation.. interesting - http://www.giraffepen.blogspot.com/ |
That guy is an "ex-gay" like Ted Haggard.
The man is also a hypocrite. He laments western values being adopted in South Korea BUT Christianity being brought to South Korea is ok. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
