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Kustoms -- they've lost their damned mind. (tax rant)
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superacidjax



Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coralreefer_1 wrote:
No country is exporting to Korea for a loss. The import tariffs may be high, but the deals are going through because the exporters are making a profit.


Very true. They aren't exporting at a loss.. but the Korean consumer is forced to pay the tariff. If there's a tariff on a particular import, it's typically set at a level that would allow the domestic equivalent to be priced slightly lower than the import. If there's a 300% tariff on rice for instance, that means that Korean rice can be priced 299% higher than the overall world market price.

That 299% is effectively a measure of the inefficiency of the domestic producer. After all, if the domestic producer was as efficient as the importer, then the tariffs wouldn't be needed.

Who pays that 299% price increase? The average Korean. As you stated with the impact of job losses in a small county, the overspending that Koreans are forced into has a far more dramatic effect on a smaller economy. If every Korean could save 299% on rice, that would more than offset the loses from the domestic rice industry because that extra money the consumer has would then be used to buy other things, invest or save. That would then lead to the development of new industries or expansion of existing ones. Now, as it stands, the entire country is subsidizing rice farmers. While it helps the rice industry, it harms far more people. Think of all the industries that are being harmed because consumers are spending too much on rice.

Note: while 300% rice tariffs have been realities in Korea, for the sake of this argument, I was just picking a number for illustrative purposes. It really doesn't matter what the tariff percent is, the concept stays the same.

It's easy to advocate protectionism when there's a clear "victim" (i.e. rice farmers) but the reality is that protectionism actually creates more "victims" -- although who those victims are can't be isolated. Is it the computer maker who sells less because people spend more on rice? Is it the car maker that sells fewer cars because people have less money? How about the dock workers who unload fewer imports because of the tariffs protecting a particular product? It is a very diverse group of victims. Unfortunately, the inability for those "victims" to know that they're victims means that they can't organize politically, so the policies are often in favor of the special interest group. Any time a policy is designed to help a specific group, there are countless, unidentified victims of that policy.
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superacidjax



Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pkang0202 wrote:
In fact, the only people that WOULD drink Jack Daniels are probably rich people who can afford it.


True. However, lowering the liquor (and other) taxes would mean that those same rich people could spend more money on other things. Instead they're having a large amount of money sucked away in taxes when they could be increasing the sales of some other industry. So that "other industry" is losing out because of the high taxes on liquor.
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coralreefer_1



Joined: 19 Jan 2009

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

superacidjax wrote:
coralreefer_1 wrote:
No country is exporting to Korea for a loss. The import tariffs may be high, but the deals are going through because the exporters are making a profit.


Very true. They aren't exporting at a loss.. but the Korean consumer is forced to pay the tariff. If there's a tariff on a particular import, it's typically set at a level that would allow the domestic equivalent to be priced slightly lower than the import. If there's a 300% tariff on rice for instance, that means that Korean rice can be priced 299% higher than the overall world market price.

That 299% is effectively a measure of the inefficiency of the domestic producer. After all, if the domestic producer was as efficient as the importer, then the tariffs wouldn't be needed.

Who pays that 299% price increase? The average Korean. As you stated with the impact of job losses in a small county, the overspending that Koreans are forced into has a far more dramatic effect on a smaller economy. If every Korean could save 299% on rice, that would more than offset the loses from the domestic rice industry because that extra money the consumer has would then be used to buy other things, invest or save. That would then lead to the development of new industries or expansion of existing ones. Now, as it stands, the entire country is subsidizing rice farmers. While it helps the rice industry, it harms far more people. Think of all the industries that are being harmed because consumers are spending too much on rice.

Note: while 300% rice tariffs have been realities in Korea, for the sake of this argument, I was just picking a number for illustrative purposes. It really doesn't matter what the tariff percent is, the concept stays the same.

It's easy to advocate protectionism when there's a clear "victim" (i.e. rice farmers) but the reality is that protectionism actually creates more "victims" -- although who those victims are can't be isolated. Is it the computer maker who sells less because people spend more on rice? Is it the car maker that sells fewer cars because people have less money? How about the dock workers who unload fewer imports because of the tariffs protecting a particular product? It is a very diverse group of victims. Unfortunately, the inability for those "victims" to know that they're victims means that they can't organize politically, so the policies are often in favor of the special interest group. Any time a policy is designed to help a specific group, there are countless, unidentified victims of that policy.



True..textbook logic and it can't be denied. Lowered welfare for the people and deadweight losses are all results of such tariff barriers.

I'm not disagreeing with anything about this at all, only to point out that there are variables which play into these types of policies that are not easily measured and therefore cannot be seen.

Certainly policy makers know well the sacrifices to public welfare that eventually result from protectionist policies. I believe these people make these decisions by weighing the pros and cons and making the choice (whether right or wrong) that it is better to protect certain industries that are vital to the nation even though it may cause the people to pay a higher price.

Of course in the case of rice, the amount of land capable of growing rice is small and farmers have nowhere near the technological capability of more industrialized nations. The output is actually quite small in contrast with the population of the nation and that rice is a staple food eaten several times a day by most people.

However, no matter how much logic that basic trade theory can put forth that Korea does not have an advantage in this area, and how much better it may be to allow this to be imported and use those land/labor resources for other reasons, no nation wants to completely be reliant for food, particularly a food that is so much a part of everyday life.

That is basic and applies to all nations. What cannot be measured on a chart or graph are the intangibles that go into a decision that seems so backwards from commonly accepted trade theory.

The idea that here in Korea, like many countries, the agricultural community holds a special place in the heart of Koreans plays a large part in these policies. People generally feel that these farmers and their work is part of their culture, their heritage, and part of who they are as a people. In the hearts of many, failure of Korean farmers to produce due to competition from other nations would mean a loss of a part of their culture, at a time when much of the traditional ways of life are being left behind. These kinds of emotional feelings play into policies that seem backwards, but to those policy makers and to the people affected, they make sense and to many are worthwhile.

Many Koreans still buy Hanwoo for this very reason, because they feel that they are helping to support farmers and protect a way of life that has been a part of Korea for centuries. Of course some people will buy the imported beef at a lower price, but many others buy the Hanwoo because they would gladly pay a higher price for what they may feel is helping to preserve their heritage, even though others businesses in the nation may face some losses from this (importers of beef, etc..)
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earthbound14



Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my big beef againts protectionist Korea.

As I stated before I've usually been in favour of protected economies. I prefer the idea of buying local and am well aware of the fact that large international corporations will do their best to eliminate smaller local industries...even if those industries are producing better products (although not usually cheaper, as using labour from poor countries has normally been the way in which a company has been able to lower prices and put more respectable competition out of business).

What bugs be about Korea is the extreme localism of industry. Korean companies use cheap labour in China, they have little regard for the environement and seem to demonstare even less regard for the consumer. They even show that they are slow to make advancements. My opinion is that a protected economy will allow greater quality to a certain extent, that a fully open economy only promotes cut throat economics. Korea seems to be at the other end of the spectrum. They are so protected and unrealistically so that they simply do not have to compete.

Hyosung Motorcycles is my favourite example. They have been producing bikes for 30 years, they have been producing a 650cc bike now for 6 years. They have done little to change the initial bike, they do not respond to consumer demands, they do not advertise or commuincate with the consumer, they do not even have an updated web site with valuable information in the US where the free market should suggest they need one. They are generally a very poorly run company that exists only because they are protected and they persist in stupid business practices because they are clueless (even though they are in western markets) about good business practices. Their prices are high while the quality and reputation of their product is low. Even in western countries they lose out to Japanese products (they are often better priced, not cheaper, but far more reasonably priced when compared with their quality).

A comparison with Japan usually reveals that similar bikes in Japan from the local Japanese manufaturers are the same price as the local products produced for the Korean market. A quality Japanese bike in Japan costs about the same as a lower quality Korean bike in Korea.

Now in Korea, Korean bikes are the cheapest thing to buy, and they are in reality a bit cheaper than buying them abroad. This is all true, but I think they should be cheaper. They are artificially high (to the point where they are the same as the prices of better quality products in Japan) yet are offering a much lower quality of product. They actually offer less quality to the local market (less variety, and lower standards, poorer web sites and less communications with the consumer) than they do in foreign markets.

On top of this import bikes are ridiculously expensive. Bikes from outside the country simply cannot compete with Korean products when a similar Korean product exists. Even if the quality of the import product is significantly better. This means that low quality products have a monopoly.

Basically if Koreans wish to ride a motorcycle they have to buy a cheap poorly built Korean bike from a manufacturer that has demonstrated how little they care about the local consumer (and a key reason why their 650 has never taken off in Korea and why Koreans prefer Daelim or expensive Japanese bikes) or they have to buy an extremely expensive import.

This market is unrealistically protected.

The end result is that many Korean products are unrealistically expensive, in some cases more expensive than western imports (bicycles, notebook computers, hiking gear, Lespo bikes, LG laptops and Blak Yak hiking gear are all more expensive then Trek bikes, Toshiba laptops and Columbia hiking gear while they are virtually unknown outside the country) while not providing the same quality as their western counter parts or even their own products abroad (Korean cars made for the Korean economy are not able to be imported to Canada because the standards here are too low).

Certain elements of the Korean ecomony are artificially inflated as well. The point about whisky is a good one. it is expensive for a number of reasons. AS a drink of the rich foreign business men of the past (something that was expensive to poor Koreas even without import costs) it has become a symbol of wealth and has earned itself an unrealistic status. However, this is also because of protectionist policies. It's hard to say which had ha greater effect on creating a higher price. But without protectionist policies the prices would surely come down, perhaps not the same as the west, but they would come down.
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
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Joined: 11 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Kustoms -- they've lost their damned mind. (tax rant) Reply with quote

travelingfool wrote:
superacidjax wrote:
Korean Customs (i.e. Kustoms) has lost their damned mind when it comes to import taxes.

Check out these tax rates for alcoholic beverages entering Korea (beyond the standard duty free allowance.)

Beer (alcohol content 1% or more) 72%
Fruit wine (alcohol content 1% or more) 30%
Whiskey (alcohol content 1% or more) 72%
Brandy (alcohol content 1% or more) 72%
General distilled spirits (alcohol content 1% or more) 72%
Unrefined Liquors (alcohol content 1% or more) 5%
Liquors made by a fermenting method other than fermented liquors 30%
Liquors made by a fementing method, mixed with neutral spirits or distilled liquor 72%


72% tax rates?? The Korean government needs a wake up call. I think it would be simply awesome if the US and Canada put a 100% tax on Hyundais and Samsung TVs. We'll then see how long Korea maintains their ridiculous tariffs, quotas and excise taxes.

It gets better..

Taxpayers of the special excise tax, transportation tax, tobacco consumption tax and liquor tax are required to pay education tax ON TOP OF the excise tax.

and the rates are..

Taxpayer of Special Excise Tax: 30%
Taxpayer of Transportation Tax: 15%
Taxpayer of Tobacco Tax: 50%
Taxpayer of Liquor Tax 10% (30% when liquor tax rate is over 70%)

Here's an example. Let's say I'm bringing two bottles of Louis XIII Cognac to Korea with me in a couple of weeks. Each bottle is priced around $1700 here in the US. I'm allowed to bring 1 bottle into Korea duty free. The second bottle will be taxed at 72% (the brandy rate), that means I'll have to pay a tax of about $1200.

But, I also have to pay the education tax on top of the liquor tax. Since the liquor tax rate was over 70%, that means I have an additional 30% tax. So the value for the purpose of the education tax is $1700+$1200 for the liquor tax=$2900 the total amount of which is taxed at the 30% which will be $870. So that $1700 of Louis XIII will actually cost a total of about $3770, with about $2070 (!!!) being taxes. That's over a 100% tax.

Trade/tariffs/taxes are my absolute biggest gripe with Korea (and other Oriental countries.) They want to (and get away with) flooding US and Canadian markets with their Hyundais, Kias, and Samsungs, yet when we want to import anything to Korea, they pull this protectionist lunacy.

The US is just as much to blame as the Koreans simply because the US lawmakers don't stand up to the virtual tax extortion that the Koreans are getting away with. The funny thing is that these ridiculous import duties are actually hurting the Korean people more that it helps them.

It drives up prices for ALL goods, after all, if imported wine has a high tax, that raises its price, obviously, well, now that means that the Korean wine makers can raise their prices too because the competition has been taxed out of contention so to speak. The consumer pays more for everything, imports or domestics and that takes away money they could be using to buy other products or save and invest.

Cars aren't taxed quite as bad as alcohol, but they're taxed pretty badly. It's no wonder you don't see Fords and GMs very often in Korea. It's also no wonder that US automakers are on the skids.. they can't compete in Korea and they can't compete in the US, thanks to minimally taxed imports from Korea and Japan.

Cars with a 2.0L engine or greater are taxed at the customs rate of 8%, then the total new value is then taxed at 10% for VAT then that new total value is then taxed an additional 10% for the special excise tax. Finally all of that is then taxed with a 30% education tax! All of the taxes are stacked on the previous taxes in the list, so taxes are paid on taxes which are paid on taxes!!!

A $20,000 car: $20,000+$1600 (customs duty)=$21,600+$2160 (VAT)=$23,760+$2376(excise tax)=$26,136+$7840 (education tax)=

The grand total of a $20K car-------> $33976. If the car was below 2.0L the excise tax drops to 5%, but with the other taxes stacked, the total comes out to be $32,432.

Economics obviously takes a back seat in Korea. Perhaps the US, UK and Canada ought to be sending people to Korea to teach economics rather than English. It would seem that the average Korean's English-ee is much better than their entire government's economics-ee.

I apologize for the long post and lots of calculations, but when I recently learned about these taxes, I was pretty irritated. I figure that someone on this board might be interested in the workings of the Korean Customs Service.

Here's the link to the Korean Customs page that explains the figures I used for my calculations..

http://english.customs.go.kr/kcsweb/user.tdf?a=common.HtmlApp&c=1501&page=/english/html/kor/personal/personal_02_03.html&mc=ENGLISH_PERSONAL_POST_030


The same thing goes for people as well. Earlier today I was traveling through Anaheim, California and couldn't believe the amount of businesses with Korean writing on their signs. I passed by a huge Korean church which used to be an aerospace company. Koreans have a lot of latitude to start businesses in the US yet make it damn near impossible for a waygook to start a business in Korea. China is the same way though not as bad. I just wonder where these Asian tiger countries would be if our governments actually got some balls and reciprocated by slapping tariffs on their products.

You can't blame the Koreans. As many of you well know, they will do pretty much anything they can get away with to separate us from our money. The problem is that our governments are quite content to sell all us out don't give a damn about our countries.

Well, one bright spot in the universe it that California is likely going to decriminalize pot pretty soon Very Happy


I think you could rephrase that to say there are many Koreans who would
take the opportunity to rip off foreigners and also other Koreans because their government too often turns a blind eye in your opinion to such actions. I am not saying I agree or disagree as a moderator. I am just saying that the way you phrased it is kind of bigoted and too generalized, though we all understand your sentiments. The problem with it is you are making it seem all Koreans do this or that.

Thanks,

'Rico

P.S. Only you can put out TOS related fires.....
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