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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicides |
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Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicides
Higher levels of naturally occurring lithium in the water supply are associated with fewer suicides in the local population, reports a study just published in The British Journal of Psychiatry.
Lithium is one of the fundamental elements, but is also used by psychiatrists as one the most effective drug treatment for mood disorders, in the form of lithium carbonate and lithium citrate, where it is also known to reduce the risk of suicide.
This new study suggests that even trace amounts might have an influence on the whole population level, and this is not the first time this link has been made.
A 1990 study found higher levels of lithium in drinking water were linked to fewer incidences of crimes, suicides, and arrests related to drug addictions.
This leads to the intriguing question of whether lithium should be added to the water supply as a public health measure.
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/04/lithium_levels_in_dr.html[/b] |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicide |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Quote: |
Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicides
Higher levels of naturally occurring lithium in the water supply are associated with fewer suicides in the local population, reports a study just published in The British Journal of Psychiatry.
Lithium is one of the fundamental elements, but is also used by psychiatrists as one the most effective drug treatment for mood disorders, in the form of lithium carbonate and lithium citrate, where it is also known to reduce the risk of suicide.
This new study suggests that even trace amounts might have an influence on the whole population level, and this is not the first time this link has been made.
A 1990 study found higher levels of lithium in drinking water were linked to fewer incidences of crimes, suicides, and arrests related to drug addictions.
This leads to the intriguing question of whether lithium should be added to the water supply as a public health measure.
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/04/lithium_levels_in_dr.html[/b] |
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"Miranda." |
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Robot_Teacher
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Robotting Around the World
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| I always thought of lithium and drugs containing it to be suicidal tendencies. Surely something got mixed up here. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Robot_Teacher wrote: |
| I always thought of lithium and drugs containing it to be suicidal tendencies. Surely something got mixed up here. |
You mean that lithium and lithium-containing drugs caused suicides? Actually lithium is a common drug for treating bipolar disorder:
en.wikipedia.org/lithium
This research study raises the issue of whether or not adding minute amounts of lithium to public drinking water in high crime and suicide neighborhoods would be a good idea or not. Certainly it's controversial, but lithium is a naturally occurring element, so some would argue that "lithium-ation" is not really mass medication. Further public health research studies are certainly warranted. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Very interesting ideas Manner of Speaking. The adding of Lithium to the drinking water would become of course a political football. But if it reduced crime and suicide it might be a good idea. My father knew a scientist at Oak Ridge National laboratory who was not only one of the first researchers on Lithium and mental health but treated himself with lithium. The governments 'social engineering" is somewhat repellent but the benefits could be substantial. Good topic! |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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There would be a price to pay: we'd be giving up our highs as well. I am not saying it would not be worth it, but just realize it.
Do we really want to eliminate all manic highs and depressive lows from the population? Some people have accomplished their greatest work in such periods. A businessman may become "workaholic" for a while and lead his company to new heights. Vincent van Gogh is thought to have been manic-depressive, I mean bipolar, and in a low when he painted Starry Night. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Very interesting ideas Manner of Speaking. The adding of Lithium to the drinking water would become of course a political football. But if it reduced crime and suicide it might be a good idea. My father knew a scientist at Oak Ridge National laboratory who was not nly one of the first researchers on Lithium and mental health but treated himself with lithium. The governments 'social engineering" is somewhat repellent but the benefits could be substantial. Good topic! |
rollo,
You're right, it's potentially a very big political football. At the very least, this study will lead to similar studies to see if similar correlations can be made. A long time ago when I was an undergrad student, I was interested in a field called Medical Geography, which has to do with how human health and health care provision varies from place to place. Part of it can be attributed to geochemistry; the idea of flouridating water came from a study in Texas in the late 1940s that showed that people living in an area with naturally high levels of flouride in groundwater had fewer dental caries.
It will be an interesting topic to follow in the next few years.
bacasper,
You're right, if it is done incorrectly it would be, in effect, anesthetizing the entire population. It would be like Soma in Brave New World.
I don't think anybody would find it ethical to add lithium to drinking water to such high levels as to completely medicate people against bipolar disorder. What might be worth looking at, however, is the utility of very low-level "lithium-ation" of drinking water supplies that might suicide in borderline individuals. This might reduce the incidence of suicide and/or criminal offenses in the general population by nudging these individuals back from the edge.
Of course, it's an open question at this point whether the cause and effect can be replicated and verified in subsequent studies, and whether the alleged benefit would be significant enough to justify lithiumating the water supply. There is also the question of how much lithium is enough to reduce the suicide incidence without affecting the moods of the healthy portion of the population.
Some people are more sensitive to CO2 levels than others; they get sleepy in rooms where the level is slightly elevated, even though everybody else is unaffected. So another question is, are all members of a given population equally sensitive to a given level of lithium, or does the sensitivity level vary in the population?
I can see some governments and societies being more open to the idea than others, e.g., Japan or Korea. Japan has a high incidence of suicide - (but a low incidence of crime), a large urban population, and a culture that places high value on homogenity, factors which may make Japan more open to "social engineering" as rollo described it. If lithiumation happens anywhere it will probably happen in Japan first.
Last edited by Manner of Speaking on Sun May 03, 2009 7:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
bacasper,
I don't think anybody would find it ethical to add lithium to drinking water to such high levels as to completely medicate people against bipolar disorder. That would probably affect the everyday moods of the average person; it would be like Soma in Brave New World. I think what might be worth looking at, however, is the utility of very low-level "lithium-ation" of drinking water supplies...this might reduce - and I do mean might - suicide in borderline individuals. Low-level lithiumation might reduce the incidence of suicide and/or criminal offenses in the general population by nudging these individuals back from the edge.
Of course, it's an open question at this point whether the cause and effect can be replicated and verified in subsequent studies, and whether the alleged benefit would be significant enough to justify lithiumating the water supply.
I can see some governments and societies being more open to the idea than others, e.g., Japan or Korea. Japan has a high incidence of suicide - (but a low incidence of crime), a large urban population, and a culture that places high value on homogenity, factors which may make it easier for government to be persuaded to implement lithiumation. If lithiumation happens anywhere it will probably happen in Japan first. |
Of course, I was merely playing devil's advocate. Indeed, it would be medically unethical to medicate millons of individuals without their informed consent.
By borderline, you don't mean people with Borderline Personality Disorder, but rather borderline, or mild, cases of Bipolar Disorder, yes?
For the same sociocultural reasons you cite, lithiation of the water in places like Japan and Korea may not have the same effect on suicide rates. Where was the study done? (Sorry, link didn't work for me.) |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| By borderline, you don't mean people with Borderline Personality Disorder, but rather borderline, or mild, cases of Bipolar Disorder, yes? |
No I meant people who are borderline suicidal.
| Quote: |
| For the same sociocultural reasons you cite, lithiation of the water in places like Japan and Korea may not have the same effect on suicide rates. Where was the study done? (Sorry, link didn't work for me.) |
Actually the study was done in Japan. Since yesterday the BBC has also picked up on the story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8025454.stm |
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lithium
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicide |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Quote: |
Lithium levels in drinking water linked to fewer suicides
Higher levels of naturally occurring lithium in the water supply are associated with fewer suicides in the local population, reports a study just published in The British Journal of Psychiatry.
Lithium is one of the fundamental elements, but is also used by psychiatrists as one the most effective drug treatment for mood disorders, in the form of lithium carbonate and lithium citrate, where it is also known to reduce the risk of suicide.
This new study suggests that even trace amounts might have an influence on the whole population level, and this is not the first time this link has been made.
A 1990 study found higher levels of lithium in drinking water were linked to fewer incidences of crimes, suicides, and arrests related to drug addictions.
This leads to the intriguing question of whether lithium should be added to the water supply as a public health measure.
http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/04/lithium_levels_in_dr.html[/b] |
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The publicity is not necessary  |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: |
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So OP, you want the state to mildly drug deviant populations via the public water supply to achieve more appropriate social ends?
When I worked in a psychiatric facility, I remember employees who were/could be preggers were not to handle any lithium pill. Would we have the state then put warning labels on water? Or maybe you're confident that the pharmaceutical industry has sufficiently studied the toxicity and determined all the potential health consequences?
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Harmful effects of lithium
Lithium is much less teratogenic than previously thought, though it does double the likelihood of Ebstein's anomaly (a cardiac defect), occurring at 0.1% when used during the first trimester of pregnancy.
The average developmental score for the lithium-exposed group of children was 7-8 points lower than the control group (siblings), but well within the normal range of 100�15.[15]
The most common side effects of lithium are thirst and polyuria.
There have also been long term effects on the kidney, including diabetes insipidus with secondary distortion of bladder and urinary tract. Animal studies show long-term physical and behavioural effects extending beyond the first generation.[citation needed]
Lithium is known to be responsible for (sometimes significant) weight gain, acne with scarring, thinning of hair, and pronounced tremor, usually in the hands but extending to lips and tongue when the person is stressed, or after prolonged use.[16][17][18] [19][20]
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Pharma firms 'shop' their studies significantly. For every hundred or so studies they make only a small handful are released. The toxicity of even "naturally occurring" and then mass produced drugs is simply not sufficiently known. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
So OP, you want the state to mildly drug deviant populations via the public water supply to achieve more appropriate social ends?
When I worked in a psychiatric facility, I remember employees who were/could be preggers were not to handle any lithium pill. Would we have the state then put warning labels on water? Or maybe you're confident that the pharmaceutical industry has sufficiently studied the toxicity and determined all the potential health consequences? |
I was curious about this, so I looked into the levels of lithium normally prescribed for treating bipolar disorders. From what I was able to find, the reason why your psychiatric facility required careful handling of lithium is because the dose required to be effective is close to the toxic level. However, the levels of naturally-occuring lithium in the water of the population studied in Japan is far lower. According to Wikipedia:
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| The required dosage (15-20mg per kg of body weight) is slightly less than the toxic level, requiring blood levels of lithium to be monitored closely during treatment. In order to prescribe the correct dosage, the patient's entire medical history, both physical and psychological, is sometimes taken into consideration. (full article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacology) |
When lithium is used to treat bipolar and other disorders, the dosage necessary to be effective in the short term (3 months or less) is close to the toxic level. Wikipedia says "Lithium salts have a narrow therapeutic/toxic ratio and should therefore not be prescribed unless facilities for monitoring plasma concentrations are available."
In the Japanese study, the levels of naturally-occuring lithium they found in the population they studied ranged from 0.7 to 59 micrograms per litre of water:
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| Levels ranged from 0.7 to 59 micrograms per litre. The researchers speculated that while these levels were low, there may be a cumulative protective effect on the brain from years of drinking this tap water. (full article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8025454.stm) |
So if we do the math (feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes here):
Level of lithium in the body when used as a thereputic agent =
15-20mg per kg, which equals 0.015 grams/kg
1 liter of water = 1kg
Maximum level of lithium found in the water supply of the study population =
59 micrograms/liter = 0.000059 grams/kg
0.015 grams/kg divided by 0.000059 grams/kg = 254.24 approximately
So the maximum level of lithium found in the study population's drinking water was approximately 1/254th of the minimum level that is prescribed for theraputic purposes.
If you scroll down to the bottom of the Wikipedia article, there is some other interesting information about something called "lithia water":
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| Hundreds of soft drinks included lithium salts or lithia water (naturally occurring mineral waters with higher lithium amounts). An early version of Coca Cola available in pharmacies' soda fountains called Lithia Coke was a mixture of Coca Cola syrup and lithia water. The soft drink 7 Up, originally named "Bib-Label Lithiated Lemon-Lime Soda", contained lithium citrate[21] until it was reformulated in 1950. Additionally, Lithia light beer was brewed at the West Bend Lithia Company in Wisconsin. All of these were forced to remove lithium in 1948. |
So it seems that while lithium CAN be toxic at high doses (as is copper, iron, etc.), at much lower levels it seems to be harmless or even beneficial. The Japanese study looked at a population that over a very long period of time has been consuming water that has higher levels of naturally occuring lithium, in this case "higher" meaning levels higher than found in other regions of Japan or the world, but still far below a toxic dose. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: |
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As for the remainder of your post, as far as I know no pharmaceutical company is interested in producing lithium for public water supplies, because lithium, as an element, can't be patented. There are no pharmaceutical companies involved in the issue at all. There are a lot of open scientific and methodological questions about the efficacy, utility and benefit-cost of adding lithium to the public water supply to reduce suicides in the population.
It is a new public policy issue. That's why I started the thread. I don't know all the questions yet, let alone the answers. Nobody does. But it's bound to be discussed. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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There are going to be individuals who are more sensitive to the substance. That's how humans are. A standard bell shaped distribution still allows for outliers.
Individuals who commit suicide are outliers. Statistically, it is highly abnormal and unlikely behaviouir. What you are advocating is trying to correct a statistically unlikely outcome with a fix that has unknown long term consequences in a large and diverse populations.
1/254th doesn't comfort me. There are a wide variety of things that could go wrong. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| As for the remainder of your post, as far as I know no pharmaceutical company is interested in producing lithium for public water supplies, because lithium, as an element, can't be patented. There are no pharmaceutical companies involved in the issue at all. There are a lot of open scientific and methodological questions about the efficacy, utility and benefit-cost of adding lithium to the public water supply to reduce suicides in the population. |
I'd be interested in producing lithium for public water supplies, as a pharm firm, especially if the primary outcome is a more docile population. Further, we simply do not understand the workings of the mind, and how substances like lithium function. We know how these drugs will make people feel, but generally we do not understand the mechanics of how they impact the mind. Frankly, we do not much understand the mind.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/depression/lithium_000290.htm
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How does lithium work?
It is not really known how lithium works. Lithium may alter the way that nerve cells respond to some of the chemicals that pass messages between them. However, it is known that it is a very effective medicine. |
That's not good enough. For mass-drugging, that's not good enough. |
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