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jahson4
Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Location: Jamsil
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 Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I think treating anyone with respect is a must, whether they're male or female. As for traditional chivalry, I think it's outdated and vacuous. If a woman has arms and legs, a mind to think for herself, etc., then she can probably bring her own coat, open her own door, order her own food. I prefer women that take charge of their own lives, because I certainly can't live or die theirs. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| Jonoguru, it just so happens that after a month and a half of three hours martial arts training a day (I want to get into a cage match, you see) I am hot as balls and a feminist. Take that, your beliefs!!! But I don't wear make-up. Maybe it's not that attractive women aren't feminists, its that you don't find women attractive when they show assertiveness and who are disinclined to dress up for the boys. You're not alone in this, but that's not everyones cup of tea. believe me, you don't speak for the majority. Strong guys like strong women. |
I think there's some confusion here. First, although this thread is in Off-Topic, I had assumed the TV show in the OP was Korean and that the whole discussion was about Korean dating habits and the attitudes behind them. My post was based on this (questionable) assumption.
Second, I think you took my social observation (alright, potshot) on local attitudes to be my own personal beliefs. I was not stating my own beliefs on or expressing any sympathy with local attitudes. I see now that I should have made that more explicit. So we can disagree with the accuracy of my Korea-based observations or quibble over the precise extent to which these attitudes hold sway in Korean society, but I hope you won't ascribe them to me. |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| Jonoguru, it just so happens that after a month and a half of three hours martial arts training a day (I want to get into a cage match, you see) I am hot as balls and a feminist. Take that, your beliefs!!! But I don't wear make-up. Maybe it's not that attractive women aren't feminists, its that you don't find women attractive when they show assertiveness and who are disinclined to dress up for the boys. You're not alone in this, but that's not everyones cup of tea. believe me, you don't speak for the majority. Strong guys like strong women. |
I think there's some confusion here. First, although this thread is in Off-Topic, I had assumed the TV show in the OP was Korean and that the whole discussion was about Korean dating habits and the attitudes behind them. My post was based on this (questionable) assumption.
Second, I think you took my social observation (alright, potshot) on local attitudes to be my own personal beliefs. I was not stating my own beliefs on or expressing any sympathy with local attitudes. I see now that I should have made that more explicit. So we can disagree with the accuracy of my Korea-based observations or quibble over the precise extent to which these attitudes hold sway in Korean society, but I hope you won't ascribe them to me. |
Haha, my bad. And conveniently easy to see where I went astray.
About Korean dating habits. I've dated a few Korean men since I've been here. Some of them were clearly looking for a fling, others interested in something a little more lasting. But at least once during each date I was asked if I could cook. I don't date nearly enough to make a good population sample for study, but I wonder if other women have come across the same thing. It's a pretty harmless question, and I doubt it would stick in my mind if I did not hate cooking with the fire of a thousand suns. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| Jonoguru, it just so happens that after a month and a half of three hours martial arts training a day (I want to get into a cage match, you see) I am hot as balls and a feminist. Take that, your beliefs!!! But I don't wear make-up. Maybe it's not that attractive women aren't feminists, its that you don't find women attractive when they show assertiveness and who are disinclined to dress up for the boys. You're not alone in this, but that's not everyones cup of tea. believe me, you don't speak for the majority. Strong guys like strong women. |
I think there's some confusion here. First, although this thread is in Off-Topic, I had assumed the TV show in the OP was Korean and that the whole discussion was about Korean dating habits and the attitudes behind them. My post was based on this (questionable) assumption.
Second, I think you took my social observation (alright, potshot) on local attitudes to be my own personal beliefs. I was not stating my own beliefs on or expressing any sympathy with local attitudes. I see now that I should have made that more explicit. So we can disagree with the accuracy of my Korea-based observations or quibble over the precise extent to which these attitudes hold sway in Korean society, but I hope you won't ascribe them to me. |
Haha, my bad. And conveniently easy to see where I went astray.
About Korean dating habits. I've dated a few Korean men since I've been here. Some of them were clearly looking for a fling, others interested in something a little more lasting. But at least once during each date I was asked if I could cook. I don't date nearly enough to make a good population sample for study, but I wonder if other women have come across the same thing. It's a pretty harmless question, and I doubt it would stick in my mind if I did not hate cooking with the fire of a thousand suns. |
I've asked women if they could cook. I like it if a woman can cook. I've also been asked by women if I can cook. I wouldn't necessarily expect a woman to cook. Heck, we could cook together. It would be nice if she could cook. I would be so happy if she made me a dish that wouldn't kill me:) 
I am not sure about feminism and the feminist movement. I am sure it has had a positive role, but it has also in some cases encouraged the emergence of a combative interaction between both genders where Western males were treated like necessary enemies.
I remember taking a feminist ethics class, and the way the professor talked men were the worst thing ever. Women and men need interdependence, and there are certain typical things about males that your average woman likes and vice versa, but there has to be some kind of balance and fairness. I like a woman to be comfortable showing her femininity, just as man should be comfortable being masculine.
As far as chivalry, a lot of women still like that, but I think a guy should be a gentleman in general vis-a-vis people of both genders, but usually a romantic guy is chivalrous. Why is it such a horrible thing to do? |
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aboxofchocolates
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Location: on your mind
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
I've asked women if they could cook. I like it if a woman can cook. I've also been asked by women if I can cook. I wouldn't necessarily expect a woman to cook. Heck, we could cook together. It would be nice if she could cook. I would be so happy if she made me a dish that wouldn't kill me:)
I am not sure about feminism and the feminist movement. I am sure it has had a positive role, but it has also in some cases encouraged the emergence of a combative interaction between both genders where Western males were treated like necessary enemies.
I remember taking a feminist ethics class, and the way the professor talked men were the worst thing ever. Women and men need interdependence, and there are certain typical things about males that your average woman likes and vice versa, but there has to be some kind of balance and fairness. I like a woman to be comfortable showing her femininity, just as man should be comfortable being masculine.
As far as chivalry, a lot of women still like that, but I think a guy should be a gentleman in general vis-a-vis people of both genders, but usually a romantic guy is chivalrous. Why is it such a horrible thing to do? |
Not a horrible thing to do by any means. I certainly wouldn't object, and I'd prefer to see chivalry than no manners at all. However, I would find it more endearing to see my date treat me equally than have him order food for me or take over tasks I am capable of doing myself. I like being compentent.
Hey, do you blame the pesants for the french revolution? Not everything that comes out of activism is pleasent, but I know how crappy my life would be without it. I am argumentative, I know, but I don't see men in general as the enemy. For me it's a systemic problem, and your average man has functionally as little power to change the system as your average woman.
When I was in highschool I did not identify as a feminist. I argued for animal rights and human rights in general, but I avoided arguments about feminism. It was pretty difficult because people seemed to assume I was a feminist and start the debate somewhere in the middle, chalanging my beliefs before I even voiced them. When I was about 23 and had just started martial arts, I realized even though I had never taken a feminist stance in an argument pretty much everyone identified me as a die hard feminist whether I said I was or not. So I gave up and started calling myself one. And then I began to articulate the arguments that I had quietly kept to myself for years. It was anti-feminist men who kept trying to pick fights with me for years, so I guess I can directly thank them for eventually taking a stance as a radical feminist. What's more, I have had people attempt to drag me into arguments long before I decided I was a feminist. If I seem quick to jump on the defensive, it's not so much because I am a feminist as I have been treated as a feminist for years, and it has made me edgy.
I suspect you sort of have the same thing happening to you. You are quietly minding your own business (in a class dedicated to feminism, mind you, not on the bus or eating lunch or watching tv or wherever and whenever, which is where people would pick fights with me) and someone identifies you as being sexist for no other reason than you are male. Bummer. Now you are openly identifying as anti"feminist" (i'm putting feminist in quotes because I've read enough of your stuff to know you are not anti-equality). I get that, it's a drag. I've met a lot of guys who largely advocate gender equality but have had bad experiences with some feminists. That's a pain i my ass because I take the flak for whatever turned the guy off in the first place. Can't get rid of feminism, though, because it is the only thing keeping me out of the kitchen right now.
Reasonable individual, and you can cook!!! You've got it all going for you, adventurer! |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, I used to think ordering for a woman was horribly misogynist and bad and whatever, until this one girl explained it to me - she's horribly indecisive and hates making decisions. She'll stand in front of her closet and spend an hour agonizing over what to wear. So when she goes out to eat she wants to be relieved of the choices of where to go, what to do, and what to order from the menu. She hopes the guy makes those decisions for her.
Since I'm a dense idiot she had to explain it to me, but I can imagine a more sensitive and caring guy picking up on that and just going ahead with ordering and whatever in order to be nice.
Its all about being nice. |
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DorkothyParker
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to go with the majority of the posters and agree that manners are great but chivalry in that super antiquated sense is just strange for me. I always feel like whoever gets to a door first, opens it. As for the male ordering food for his date, that freaks me the hell out! I'd imagine it would play out like that episode of Futurama where Leela ends up on a date with Zapp Branigan and he orders her a "sexy" salad. *gag* The exception is with communal food orders like tapas or sushi where it makes more sense for just one person to state the order to avoid confusion.
I don't feel my opinion is related to my being a feminist, though, but rather just a generational and cultural view. I also should point out that I haven't really "dated" in the traditional sense so I do not really know what dating norms are. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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are you saying a guy has never asked you out to dinner and a movie? Like, ever?
babe, we gotta go see Knowing. You busy friday? |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| This is why a lot of British guys find American girls so easy. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Not an issue of chivalry or even manners. In Korea, proper dinners come in units of 2인분. You're getting 2 servings of the same thing, so in this country -- unless you're eating at some candy-ass Western restaurant or some cheap-ass peasant dive -- there's no point in the chick ordering her *half of the meal* separately.
Outside of Korea -- Who cares? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I have ordered for women before, but that's because we often go to restaurants where I know the cuisine or what might taste good, so the women trust my judgement. It would be kind of like a guy in the movies taking his girl to a nice restaurant where he knows the dishes, and then he orders for her. If it's a regular restaurant, then every person gets his dish for himself.
As far as dating, usually a guy should show manners, and if he can get the door, he should open it if he sees himself as a gentleman, but if she gets the door first, it's no big deal. It's nice for a woman to do the same and show manners. Nothing says a lady can't open the door long ago or now. I try to open the door for her. That's the way I was raised. Then again, I would also help someone in trouble who is a stranger and needs help. I get the impression that some decades ago men were encouraged to have manners and be gentlemen with the women.
As far as dating in a traditional sense, I believe in the idea that someone you are interested in that you meet is your date, and the 2nd time you meet romantically it's your 2nd date and then your 3rd date. Pretty much after that, you've decided if you're dating. However, some people will be on the 10th date or 15th and still won't call the person a boyfriend just because they don't want to use the term. I prefer more of what you see is what you get from me as a man to the woman and vice versa.
Women like men who are decisive, masculine, and can be tough, generally. There are double standards out there. Despite all the talk of equality, women want a man to be a man. Of course, there is overlap. Women don't want to be controlled by men. She wants to feel he is strong, I am guessing. She wants him to be very confident, but not an a-hole. She wants him to have manners, of course, but she wants him to be as strong as a knight in many ways, so to speak. The knights were liked (the stereotypical ones) because they were a mixture of strong and romantic. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
I've asked women if they could cook. I like it if a woman can cook. I've also been asked by women if I can cook. I wouldn't necessarily expect a woman to cook. Heck, we could cook together. It would be nice if she could cook. I would be so happy if she made me a dish that wouldn't kill me:)
I am not sure about feminism and the feminist movement. I am sure it has had a positive role, but it has also in some cases encouraged the emergence of a combative interaction between both genders where Western males were treated like necessary enemies.
I remember taking a feminist ethics class, and the way the professor talked men were the worst thing ever. Women and men need interdependence, and there are certain typical things about males that your average woman likes and vice versa, but there has to be some kind of balance and fairness. I like a woman to be comfortable showing her femininity, just as man should be comfortable being masculine.
As far as chivalry, a lot of women still like that, but I think a guy should be a gentleman in general vis-a-vis people of both genders, but usually a romantic guy is chivalrous. Why is it such a horrible thing to do? |
Not a horrible thing to do by any means. I certainly wouldn't object, and I'd prefer to see chivalry than no manners at all. However, I would find it more endearing to see my date treat me equally than have him order food for me or take over tasks I am capable of doing myself. I like being compentent.
Hey, do you blame the pesants for the french revolution? Not everything that comes out of activism is pleasent, but I know how crappy my life would be without it. I am argumentative, I know, but I don't see men in general as the enemy. For me it's a systemic problem, and your average man has functionally as little power to change the system as your average woman.
When I was in highschool I did not identify as a feminist. I argued for animal rights and human rights in general, but I avoided arguments about feminism. It was pretty difficult because people seemed to assume I was a feminist and start the debate somewhere in the middle, chalanging my beliefs before I even voiced them. When I was about 23 and had just started martial arts, I realized even though I had never taken a feminist stance in an argument pretty much everyone identified me as a die hard feminist whether I said I was or not. So I gave up and started calling myself one. And then I began to articulate the arguments that I had quietly kept to myself for years. It was anti-feminist men who kept trying to pick fights with me for years, so I guess I can directly thank them for eventually taking a stance as a radical feminist. What's more, I have had people attempt to drag me into arguments long before I decided I was a feminist. If I seem quick to jump on the defensive, it's not so much because I am a feminist as I have been treated as a feminist for years, and it has made me edgy.
I suspect you sort of have the same thing happening to you. You are quietly minding your own business (in a class dedicated to feminism, mind you, not on the bus or eating lunch or watching tv or wherever and whenever, which is where people would pick fights with me) and someone identifies you as being sexist for no other reason than you are male. Bummer. Now you are openly identifying as anti"feminist" (i'm putting feminist in quotes because I've read enough of your stuff to know you are not anti-equality). I get that, it's a drag. I've met a lot of guys who largely advocate gender equality but have had bad experiences with some feminists. That's a pain i my ass because I take the flak for whatever turned the guy off in the first place. Can't get rid of feminism, though, because it is the only thing keeping me out of the kitchen right now.
Reasonable individual, and you can cook!!! You've got it all going for you, adventurer! |
Aboxofchocolate, you know arguing can be interesting, but sometimes it can be tiring. Don't you think there is too much power playing between American males and females? I could be wrong.
I think it's poor manners for males to argue with you about being a feminist. For me, it's cool as long as a female doesn't act like she has to prove nothin' to me. That, sometimes gets tirin'. I don't get why you see so many American (less Canadian) women saying how they are so independent and have to emphasize it. Why does it need to be emphasized? I never quite got that. Then, the Western guys wonder why they want to date if they have to say they're independent. If we're in a time of equality, well we guys don't go around saying "I am an independent male".
Do you think a lot of American women feel they must prove something as if they think America is a tough place for women? Of course, in some ways America is a horrible place for women, because there is a crazy rape rate and violence against them is bad.
Now, don't get me wrong I think there is something horribly wrong with plenty of American males. I was raised in different places, not one, so I can't pretend to know the ins and outs. I am just saying that, in some ways, both the men and women have become worse. The men were more gentlemanly and sure the women also had more manners.
There was also not so much of the combative atmosphere between the sexes until after the 70s from what I understand.
I, definitely, there are positive elements of feminism. I mean women are deprived of many great jobs. However, can't you argue that feminism exists in Western Europe including Switzerland and Sweden, but you don't have the same power play dynamic between the two sexes. I didn't get that impression, at least.
You are right that I am for equality. I am not for sameness, men and women are different, but worthy of equal respect, equal access to jobs. I do believe biology does have a role in how the two genders behave, but it's not black and white. I also think some women can have a lot of masculine attributes more than others and vice versa. The focus should be on women and men listening to each other and respecting each other to build a loving relationship. I can't claim to be an expert on that, but I am a good listener, and men have to be able to handle a strong woman, and lots of women want to test men to see if the guy can handle her fire.
Anyway, I don't think it was cool with those guys confronting you in the past to box you in somewhere. It's not cool. I do believe in some gray/grey between both genders. Also, guys need to do a lot more housework me included. There is too much pressure on women. I have nothing against women staying home, either, to take care of the kids.
For me, a healthy mother, father, and children are the most important thing out there, and they have to make different sacrifices that they talk about to make things work. There has to be some flexibility.
Anyway, everyone should have manners, men or women. It's a total turn on for me. |
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Khenan
Joined: 25 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
Chivalry? Hells yeah!! Just the other day someone questioned whether I was the fairest maid in the land, and my man jousted the crap out of that dude!!
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Hahahaha... omfg that made me laugh |
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DorkothyParker
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: Jeju
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Though I never "dated", I am married. I married my HS honey and back in the day we used to just make out at his place. By the time we actually went out anywhere he didn't really need to impress me. He does that "traditional" stuff occasionally, but I know him and I just think it's hilarious.
I'm pleased to say that he cooks (very well) and I don't. We might be a bit gender fucked. |
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harlowethrombey
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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It all depends on how you were raised. I was raised to address older people (or strangers in general) with 'Sir' or 'Ma'am'. Some people take offense to that. I was raised to hold open doors for my date or anyone else. Some women think I'm dis-empowering them. I was raised to give my coat to my date if she's cold or carry her bags if they're heavy or pay for dinner.
Being chivalrous or having good manners is not a way of infantilizing people. It's a way of being civil, of being a gentleman or a lady.
When you see a woman struggling to lug her carrier full of boxes and newspapers up the subway stairs is your first instinct to glance at her as you walk past or pick up the back end and help her carry it up? I think it all depends on how you were raised and what's important to you.
Just like opening doors or holding the umbrella or whatever.
And if people take offense to that. . . f*ck em. |
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