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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| traxxe wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
| sigmundsmith wrote: |
| I originally posted the question: Are there more prostitutes in Korea (pop. ratio) to say countries like Thailand? |
How could anyone on Dave's answer your question in a helpful way? Are any reliable statistics available? If so, why don't you find them and post a link to a credible source so people can discuss the subject intelligently?
One thing I hate about Dave's is that people constantly throw around unsupported statements and ignorant generalizations, yet the mods never drop in to actually post a response. The prostitution thread was idiotic. Someone asked a question about the respective prostitute populations of an unspecified group of countries�apparently without having made any attempt to find the information himself�and within minutes, the thread filled up with all sorts of irrelevant posts. No one provided links with actual answers to the OP's question�just opinions about whether prostitution is good or bad and assumptions/generalizations about all Korean men and all Korean women.
On a well-moderated board, a thread like that wouldn't mysteriously disappear�a mod would lock it and post a public explanation:
"X, you're making unsupported assumptions. Unsupported statements and negative generalizations about entire groups of people are offensive and won't be tolerated on this message board.�
(BTW, this approach has the advantage of making it just a little bit harder for bad mods to make deliberate false accusations via PM and then punish their victims for retaliating.) |
You want academic discussion on a site not related to such discourse? That's a tall order.
There can be a way by absorbing a myriad of data on prostitution that can give you an idea of which country has the most prostiution. Looking at published reports of the GDP that goes to the sex trade, etc. It's not a stupid question, but you just want it to be backed with all the research so you don't have to hunt it for yourself. No one is forcing you to believe anything anyone posts on here.
In fact making generalizations in the case of prostiution in Korea is academically supportable. There are facts and numbers that discuss how large percentages of the population's money goes towards the sex trade. If at one time 4% of the GDP goes to the sex trade, you can draw some pretty accurate conclusions about the nature of male cultural activities in the country. You qualify these statements by saying words like 'most'.
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The problem is that "most" does not equate to 4% of the GDP. This could be spent by a minority of the adult male population.
Links that say 4% of the GDP is spent on the sex trade are fine. But to then assume that this is the result of the average Korean adult male or most Korean men is nothing but speculation. How do you KNOW (beyond a doubt) that it's not say a significant minority of the male population? |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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sigh, I'm totally contradicting myself by participating in this discussion but.
1) Question the source, exactly how does one calculate how much GDP actual goes into the prositution industry? Consdiering it's illegal I highly doubt there is an accurate way to account for illegal activity. There is no way to track that money, how money is changed hands etc. I don't think the ajumma at a double swirling barber poles has business write offs including red light bulbs, brand new sheets, and contraceptive pills.
2) The amount spend does not represent the number of males who partake in the activity. You can draw general conclusions based on the fact that we have many doubley barber poled areas but you can't deduce how many people do it. With a statistic like that you could say that out of 20 males 1 of them spends his entire wages on prositution. The other 19 never go. Basically, what Urban said.
3) What does most mean? Most number of prostitues? How many times actual cases of prositiution takes place? Most money spent? Most men who use prositutes? Most is such a general term you could use it for about anything. Measuring it is an impossible task. There could 400 prosititues in one area and 40 in another, and it's quite possible that the 40 prositutes get more business and do the act more times than the 400. In which case is there more prositituion?
God I'm typing this up in school, what a glaring violation of a proper behavior lol. |
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Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Good points, TUM and Goku. (Does this mean Goku is a real person and not a sock?  )
My point was that the mods should hold posters to higher standards of factual accuracy and make at least some attempt to ensure that information posted/linked here is correct�regardless of whether the subject is prostitution, dog meat, "feminism," nutrition, health or anything else. Clearly that isn't happening. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Robot_Teacher wrote: |
| ...and controversial topics that defame Korea |
Right. Because we all know that controversial topics that defame another country are perfectly legitimate. Such as the 6 million+ posts calling Bush a war criminal or a Nazi and the derogatory stuff that gets posted about American soldiers in Korea from time to time..
That's perfectly ok. Just as long as Korea doesn't get offended.
Perhaps potential employers (and the govenment) should be reading these boards. After all, if Korea wants to be Sparkling, they ought to be aware of what people are really thinking and why they feel the way they do. Perhaps it's because of the way many foreigners have been treated in the past by unscrupulous hakwon owners. Maybe it's the way the legal system makes it nearly impossible for a foreigner to win any meritorious lawsuit. Maybe its the anti-foreigner negativity fostered by the Korean teachers union. Perhaps its the riots every time a Korean farmer gets his feelings hurt..
I don't get on Dave's to bash anyone or disrespect Korea (or any country.) But I find that Koreans have no problem bashing us when it's politically expedient. The recent Ulsan FT "dismissals," or the claim that foreigners are drug dealers or infected with AIDS or rapists.. That stuff can really drive a person to anger. I can certainly understand why some people write certain threads. If the delicate sensibilities of Korea are offended, then perhaps they should be from time to time.
As far as recruiters and schools advertising on Dave's -- they'll continue to because Dave's has a large audience and it's a popular place. The schools really don't care what we're talking about on here. They just want to find their blue-eyed blonde-haired Canadian females between the ages of 23-26. Most school don't even seem to proofread their adverts, how could they possibly care if we're discussing double barber poles or the FTA?
Regarding threads about prostitution, if Korea cared, they would do something about it. I doubt the chatter of some bored FTs is really going to attract their attention (or concern.)
I find it exceptionally hypocritical that it's ok to discuss bit torrent or the best places to buy pirate software (it's even a sticky!!) but discussing other illegal activities such as prostitution is not allowed. That's moral relativism at it's worst, it's all illegal (yes, pirate software IS illegal in Korea) yet one's ok and the other's not?
Software pirating offends me more than prostitution does, but I'm not calling for the removal of the bit-torrent and pirate threads..
If the mods want to be consistent, ANY thread discussing how-tos for illegal activities ought to be removed. I think the mods do a good job generally, but the "not defaming Korea" thing is just ridiculous. |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
Good points, TUM and Goku. (Does this mean Goku is a real person and not a sock? )
My point was that the mods should hold posters to higher standards of factual accuracy and make at least some attempt to ensure that information posted/linked here is correct�regardless of whether the subject is prostitution, dog meat, "feminism," nutrition, health or anything else. Clearly that isn't happening. |
I never figured out what a sock is,
and I take it as a compliment as everyone keeps calling me one.
And I agree with you on factual evidence. However, I don't think it's enforceable since the only active mod is Enrico and even doesn't have time to show up daily. |
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ChinaBoy
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes my posts disappear for no reason. I assume it's because of the terrible Dave's server so I post again.
Then I get nasty, rude email PMs saying to stop posting and that I "should know" that since it was deleted, not to post it again. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
Good points, TUM and Goku. (Does this mean Goku is a real person and not a sock? )
My point was that the mods should hold posters to higher standards of factual accuracy and make at least some attempt to ensure that information posted/linked here is correct�regardless of whether the subject is prostitution, dog meat, "feminism," nutrition, health or anything else. Clearly that isn't happening. |
That would be an impossible job, given how many posters are on here, and how many topics are discussed daily. The mods are (mostly) teachers like us and have a full time job on top of their modding duties.
Plus, if the mods DID try anything like that, they'd get tons of complaints about it with people saying stuff like "Well that's MY personal experience... so why is it not relevant?"
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| traxxe wrote: |
I never made silly claims to freedom of speech. I recognize this site is here for the purpose of making money. Mods can remove whatever they want. I don't have to agree with it. My school doesn't have to spend their won/dollars/whatever here. That's the way it is.
I'm just expressing the silliness of removing a thread about something that takes up to 8% of the average Korean males' paycheck. It's a significant factor in this country. People who are taking jobs about here should know about it. Some people may not come out of morale objections. Some people may come simply because it is available but then be disheartened to find that usually it is not available to them outside of military base areas.
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This is not a flame, but you need to realize that you sound quite juvenile right here.
So basically, you're going to go to your university and say "Don't advertise on Daves." The university will ask why. Your response will then be "becuase they won't let me talk about prostitution on their message board".
And EFL teachers coming over here will do just fine without having to learn about the hooker industry. I actually like reading/hearing about b1tches and hos in korea, but I know for a fact that I would have done alright with or without that knowledge. It's interesting, yes, but not essential. And if someone morally objects to hookers and decides not to come to Korea, then they're in for a rude awakening because hookers have set up roots all over the world. Also, if some guy decides to take an efl job based on the fact that hookers are available in Korea, well, then by default, he has already done his homework and doesn't need any info from daves.
There are tons of hooker info related websites on the web. They're probably way more informative than daves. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| [...They're probably way more informative than daves. |
Impossible. Dave's is the leading authority on everything. |
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Bloopity Bloop
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Location: Seoul yo
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| I actually like reading/hearing about b1tches and hos |
What about boats and hos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8T095mFdW8
Well, I personally am glad I learned about the barber shop poles prior to visiting any. So would this discussion be fine in the Off-Topic forum? |
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Forward Observer
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Location: FOB Gloria
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| Robot_Teacher wrote: |
| ...and controversial topics that defame Korea |
Right. Because we all know that controversial topics that defame another country are perfectly legitimate. Such as the 6 million+ posts calling Bush a war criminal or a Nazi and the derogatory stuff that gets posted about American soldiers in Korea from time to time..
That's perfectly ok. Just as long as Korea doesn't get offended.
Perhaps potential employers (and the govenment) should be reading these boards. After all, if Korea wants to be Sparkling, they ought to be aware of what people are really thinking and why they feel the way they do. Perhaps it's because of the way many foreigners have been treated in the past by unscrupulous hakwon owners. Maybe it's the way the legal system makes it nearly impossible for a foreigner to win any meritorious lawsuit. Maybe its the anti-foreigner negativity fostered by the Korean teachers union. Perhaps its the riots every time a Korean farmer gets his feelings hurt..
I don't get on Dave's to bash anyone or disrespect Korea (or any country.) But I find that Koreans have no problem bashing us when it's politically expedient. The recent Ulsan FT "dismissals," or the claim that foreigners are drug dealers or infected with AIDS or rapists.. That stuff can really drive a person to anger. I can certainly understand why some people write certain threads. If the delicate sensibilities of Korea are offended, then perhaps they should be from time to time.
As far as recruiters and schools advertising on Dave's -- they'll continue to because Dave's has a large audience and it's a popular place. The schools really don't care what we're talking about on here. They just want to find their blue-eyed blonde-haired Canadian females between the ages of 23-26. Most school don't even seem to proofread their adverts, how could they possibly care if we're discussing double barber poles or the FTA?
Regarding threads about prostitution, if Korea cared, they would do something about it. I doubt the chatter of some bored FTs is really going to attract their attention (or concern.)
I find it exceptionally hypocritical that it's ok to discuss bit torrent or the best places to buy pirate software (it's even a sticky!!) but discussing other illegal activities such as prostitution is not allowed. That's moral relativism at it's worst, it's all illegal (yes, pirate software IS illegal in Korea) yet one's ok and the other's not?
Software pirating offends me more than prostitution does, but I'm not calling for the removal of the bit-torrent and pirate threads..
If the mods want to be consistent, ANY thread discussing how-tos for illegal activities ought to be removed. I think the mods do a good job generally, but the "not defaming Korea" thing is just ridiculous. |
True dat. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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If you want things done your way - buy your own site.
It's as simple as that. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Goku wrote: |
| Bramble wrote: |
Good points, TUM and Goku. (Does this mean Goku is a real person and not a sock? )
My point was that the mods should hold posters to higher standards of factual accuracy and make at least some attempt to ensure that information posted/linked here is correct�regardless of whether the subject is prostitution, dog meat, "feminism," nutrition, health or anything else. Clearly that isn't happening. |
I never figured out what a sock is,
and I take it as a compliment as everyone keeps calling me one.
And I agree with you on factual evidence. However, I don't think it's enforceable since the only active mod is Enrico and even doesn't have time to show up daily. |
I agree with you that it would be too controversial and time-consuming to deal with making sure people say things are factual. And, why should moderators do that? It's not part of the TOS. Why should it be?
Also, if it were, it would be very, very, very had to enforce.
There are several very active moderators and there are other active moderators, but you don't necessarily see what they do and their contributions. However, several moderators have made it a point to be visible and to enforce the TOS, but, as you all know, you cannot be everywhere all the time.
As far as the person who brought up the fact that there is a sticky regarding pirated software, I am not familiar with it, and will look into it.
We have pulled (more than one moderator) stuff related to pirated stuff, but up to a point.
Our policy is try to generally remove stuff like that from the forums, but there is a difference between teachers talking about how they (some teachers) frequented prostitutes on an EFL forum, not that we are looking to pass judgement on individuals, but it is not something you would want associated with an EFL site. Of course, pulling a thread that has the title is not the same as discussing it within a thread. We are not looking to be the Stasi or what have you, but to have a generally clean site.
We (the moderators) do what we can to ensure the TOS is followed and to better serve sincere, hard working EFL instructors, and what not.
As Captain Corea said, this website is not owned by the users; it is not owned by the moderators. The moderators cooperate with Dave and also try to look at the needs of various people connected to the site such as the EFL instructors. We are not oblivious to the needs of sincere EFL teachers or what people have to say, but in the end this site like any site has a proprietor.
Anyway, you already know all that stuff, I am sure. You can't analyze what moderators do in a very scientific manner, because we have thousands of posters to deal with and many issues to look at, many aspects of the TOS. We do what we can. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| Robot_Teacher wrote: |
| ...and controversial topics that defame Korea |
Right. Because we all know that controversial topics that defame another country are perfectly legitimate. Such as the 6 million+ posts calling Bush a war criminal or a Nazi and the derogatory stuff that gets posted about American soldiers in Korea from time to time..
That's perfectly ok. Just as long as Korea doesn't get offended.
Perhaps potential employers (and the govenment) should be reading these boards. After all, if Korea wants to be Sparkling, they ought to be aware of what people are really thinking and why they feel the way they do. Perhaps it's because of the way many foreigners have been treated in the past by unscrupulous hakwon owners. Maybe it's the way the legal system makes it nearly impossible for a foreigner to win any meritorious lawsuit. Maybe its the anti-foreigner negativity fostered by the Korean teachers union. Perhaps its the riots every time a Korean farmer gets his feelings hurt..
I don't get on Dave's to bash anyone or disrespect Korea (or any country.) But I find that Koreans have no problem bashing us when it's politically expedient. The recent Ulsan FT "dismissals," or the claim that foreigners are drug dealers or infected with AIDS or rapists.. That stuff can really drive a person to anger. I can certainly understand why some people write certain threads. If the delicate sensibilities of Korea are offended, then perhaps they should be from time to time.
As far as recruiters and schools advertising on Dave's -- they'll continue to because Dave's has a large audience and it's a popular place. The schools really don't care what we're talking about on here. They just want to find their blue-eyed blonde-haired Canadian females between the ages of 23-26. Most school don't even seem to proofread their adverts, how could they possibly care if we're discussing double barber poles or the FTA?
Regarding threads about prostitution, if Korea cared, they would do something about it. I doubt the chatter of some bored FTs is really going to attract their attention (or concern.)
I find it exceptionally hypocritical that it's ok to discuss bit torrent or the best places to buy pirate software (it's even a sticky!!) but discussing other illegal activities such as prostitution is not allowed. That's moral relativism at it's worst, it's all illegal (yes, pirate software IS illegal in Korea) yet one's ok and the other's not?
Software pirating offends me more than prostitution does, but I'm not calling for the removal of the bit-torrent and pirate threads..
If the mods want to be consistent, ANY thread discussing how-tos for illegal activities ought to be removed. I think the mods do a good job generally, but the "not defaming Korea" thing is just ridiculous. |
Now come on, you're deflating everyone's, especially the mods', sense of ego derived from considering moral observations made on this forum to be of such great importance. |
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