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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: N. Pelosi and Torture... |
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Let us hurl the same simplistic charge at her that the left hurls at everybody else in similar situations: why did she not object at the time? why did she not tell them to stop? why did she not oppose them? does this mean that she morally approves what they did? what kind of a vile, anti-democratic creature is this woman...?
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CIA...lists 40 briefings for members of Congress from September 2002 to March 2009. The first briefing on the list -- on September 4, 2002 -- was for then-House Intelligence Committee Chairman Porter Goss and [Nancy] Pelosi, then the ranking Democrat on the committee.
The subject of the briefing is listed as EITs, or enhanced interrogation techniques, "including use of EITs on Abu Zubaydah, background on authorities, and a description of the particular EITs that had been employed..."
a CIA spokesman said, "Great care was taken with the list not to go beyond what the records themselves say..."
Whether Pelosi knew that waterboarding had been used or was told only it had been approved for use, she did not raise any objection at the time about the technique... |
CNN Reports |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| well as long as we agree that it's simplistic... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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That is correct: as long as we can agree that it is simplistic we can go ahead and denounce all of the simpletons out there in one fell swoop.  |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I think she should be investigated and I also think she has lied about her involvement. She is a terrible Speaker, ineffective and too partisan. I think the rule of law applies to everyone, including the president, vice,president , and Speaker. If that's simplistic well I vaguely remember some sort of disturbanceway back in 1776 over ideas like that. No investigating those who broke U.s. law will not bring down the Republic, or make us into a banana republic. torture is what banana republics do, and mature Democracies dont. Pelosi needs to step down. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: N. Pelosi and Torture... |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Let us hurl the same simplistic charge at her that the left hurls at everybody else in similar situations: why did she not object at the time? why did she not tell them to stop? why did she not oppose them? does this mean that she morally approves what they did? what kind of a vile, anti-democratic creature is this woman...? |
Nothing simplistic about it. Torture tactics are gross human rights violations and should not be utilized by our nation. Anyone in our government involved in the implementation of such policy -- including senators that were fairly regularly briefed on it and could have taken steps to stop it -- are in the wrong. Any investigators that take place should assuredly include members of the Senate and House, regardless of their political affiliations. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: N. Pelosi and Torture... |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Let us hurl the same simplistic charge at her that the left hurls at everybody else in similar situations: why did she not object at the time? why did she not tell them to stop? why did she not oppose them? does this mean that she morally approves what they did? what kind of a vile, anti-democratic creature is this woman...? |
Nothing simplistic about it. Torture tactics are gross human rights violations and should not be utilized by our nation. Anyone in our government involved in the implementation of such policy -- including senators that were fairly regularly briefed on it and could have taken steps to stop it -- are in the wrong. Any investigators that take place should assuredly include members of the Senate and House, regardless of their political affiliations. |
Absolutely. Singling out Pelosi just smacks of sour grapes. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I think singling out Nancy Pelosi is particularly appropriate given her repeated and systematic calls for investigating the W. Bush administration on this and related issues... |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Absolutely. Singling out Pelosi just smacks of sour grapes. |
I agree with the sentiment though not the specifics. IF Pelosi is criminally culpable, then she is in no different a situation than the administration officials who instigated the policy. But that is not the point. This Pelosi stuff is a diversionary tactic to distract attention from the real issue. Who instigated the policies; were the policies illegal; how should the people who instigated whatever illegal policies be punished if there were crimes committed?
The right wing (because there is nothing left in the Republican Party but right wingers) is desperate to shift attention away from the real issue. There is blood in the water and the sharks are circling. It is past time to appoint some kind of independent investigator/Congressional committee or whatever with subpeona power that Cheyney or anyone else must respect to investigate who did what and when and if there is criminal culpability involved.
It is mildly interesting that the right wing attacks someone for not stopping a policy rather than attack the people who set the policy in place. Once again, it is an illustration of the 'Mommy, he did it too' attempt to evade responsibility. Childish. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I think singling out Nancy Pelosi is particularly appropriate given her repeated and systematic calls for investigating the W. Bush administration on this and related issues... |
Yes. She must be exposed. It wasn't just the Texas Cons who supported it, but also the flaky SF libs. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Absolutely. Singling out Pelosi just smacks of sour grapes. |
| Gopher wrote: |
| I think singling out Nancy Pelosi is particularly appropriate given her repeated and systematic calls for investigating the W. Bush administration on this and related issues... |
Thank you for proving my point. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:30 am Post subject: |
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Here is the solution and it's really simple. Just pass a law. If you feel that waterboarding, sleep deprivation, or what ever techniques you find against the country's values then spell it out in the form of a bill and get the president to sign the bill. Problem solved.
If the democrat party really wants to put its money where its mouth is, then they wouldn't be trying to score political points by setting up kangaroo courts for their political opponents. Pass a torture law, it really is that simple.
I'm not holding my breath. Even the Democrats, just like the Republicans, won't contemplate such an idea. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Pluto wrote: |
| Here is the solution and it's really simple. Just pass a law. If you feel that waterboarding, sleep deprivation, or what ever techniques you find against the country's values then spell it out in the form of a bill and get the president to sign the bill. Problem solved. |
You mean like this law, legislated in 1994? Saying things like water-boarding don't count under this bill because they aren't mentioned by name is like saying poisoning someone to death doesn't count as first degree murder because it isn't mention by name.
There's a reason the people in question are arguing "It got results," rather than "It's legal," when they discuss the topic. It's torture, and torture is illegal. We all know the law was broken. Enacting another anti-torture bill would not only be redundant, it would legitimize what happened by making it look like it wasn't prohibited under the law at the time. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| I think singling out Nancy Pelosi is particularly appropriate given her repeated and systematic calls for investigating the W. Bush administration on this and related issues... |
Yes. She must be exposed. It wasn't just the Texas Cons who supported it, but also the flaky SF libs. |
That which must be exposed is that partisans are using, or at least proposing to use, Congressional investigative functions selectively, and likely for reasons other than good government, Mises. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Absolutely. Singling out Pelosi just smacks of sour grapes. |
I agree with the sentiment though not the specifics. IF Pelosi is criminally culpable, then she is in no different a situation than the administration officials who instigated the policy. But that is not the point. This Pelosi stuff is a diversionary tactic to distract attention from the real issue. Who instigated the policies; were the policies illegal; how should the people who instigated whatever illegal policies be punished if there were crimes committed? |
I lean towards Ya-Ta's view on this one. The public shame and notoriety she's receiving now is enough. But she didn't approve of anything, because she was only present for a briefing.
Meanwhile the people who actually came up with the policies and implemented them have not faced any accountability. Don't you start with them and work your way down? |
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