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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| Do Koreans offend you with their English? |
| Yes, because they make me feel like a foreigner. |
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9% |
[ 14 ] |
| No. I don't feel offended. |
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82% |
[ 123 ] |
| Yes, because they make me feel used. |
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8% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 149 |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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 Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Let it go. |
Do YOU appreciate it when people belittle YOUR feelings?
If not, then how do you expect ME to feel?
| Quote: |
| How is being spoken to in your native language, your thinking langauge a punishment? Or, How is being spoken to in English a punishment? |
It's a demotion to the infantile state.
Has anyone ever spoken baby talk to you to imply that you were being childish?
How did you like that?
| Quote: |
| How beneficial is sticking to Korean if it results in you having an allergic reaction to some medication you receive? |
You have a dictionary, don't you?
You can look up all the words you need.
Now that we are talking about emergencies, someday a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner is going to have an emergency in which he needs to speak Korean.
Or someday a Korean is going to have an emergency when no one else is available but a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner.
THEN tell me how trivial and insignificant and selfish it is for me to want to learn Korean!
| Quote: |
| As for long-term learning that is why there is studying and personal conversations with friends in Korean. |
Be patient. I'm still looking for Koreans who want to speak Korean to me.
By the way, I'm in Gyeongnam, too.
You're not in Hapcheon by any chance, are you?
If you are, then you probably live right upstairs from me.
| postfundie wrote: |
| Doctors and Dentists are out to show their staff how educated they are so they are going to speak English...if they don't do this the staff will think they are weak.. |
Thanks. I'll think about that.
Until now, I haven't gotten anything but ad hom attacks.
Jammer 113, thanks! |
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capebretoncanadian
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Let it go. |
Do YOU appreciate it when people belittle YOUR feelings?
If not, then how do you expect ME to feel?
| Quote: |
| How is being spoken to in your native language, your thinking langauge a punishment? Or, How is being spoken to in English a punishment? |
It's a demotion to the infantile state.
Has anyone ever spoken baby talk to you to imply that you were being childish?
How did you like that?
| Quote: |
| How beneficial is sticking to Korean if it results in you having an allergic reaction to some medication you receive? |
You have a dictionary, don't you?
You can look up all the words you need.
Now that we are talking about emergencies, someday a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner is going to have an emergency in which he needs to speak Korean.
Or someday a Korean is going to have an emergency when no one else is available but a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner.
THEN tell me how trivial and insignificant and selfish it is for me to want to learn Korean!
| Quote: |
| As for long-term learning that is why there is studying and personal conversations with friends in Korean. |
Be patient. I'm still looking for Koreans who want to speak Korean to me.
By the way, I'm in Gyeongnam, too.
You're not in Hapcheon by any chance, are you?
If you are, then you probably live right upstairs from me.
| postfundie wrote: |
| Doctors and Dentists are out to show their staff how educated they are so they are going to speak English...if they don't do this the staff will think they are weak.. |
Thanks. I'll think about that.
Until now, I haven't gotten anything but ad hom attacks.
Jammer 113, thanks! |
Why do you not call each and every one of these jerks down to the lowest using your allegedly fluent Korean and shame and shape them into your narrowly defined wedge of reality? Sounds about what I'd do if I gave a fark. |
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capebretoncanadian
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Let it go. |
Do YOU appreciate it when people belittle YOUR feelings?
If not, then how do you expect ME to feel?
| Quote: |
| How is being spoken to in your native language, your thinking langauge a punishment? Or, How is being spoken to in English a punishment? |
It's a demotion to the infantile state.
Has anyone ever spoken baby talk to you to imply that you were being childish?
How did you like that?
| Quote: |
| How beneficial is sticking to Korean if it results in you having an allergic reaction to some medication you receive? |
You have a dictionary, don't you?
You can look up all the words you need.
Now that we are talking about emergencies, someday a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner is going to have an emergency in which he needs to speak Korean.
Or someday a Korean is going to have an emergency when no one else is available but a Korean-language-illiterate foreigner.
THEN tell me how trivial and insignificant and selfish it is for me to want to learn Korean!
| Quote: |
| As for long-term learning that is why there is studying and personal conversations with friends in Korean. |
Be patient. I'm still looking for Koreans who want to speak Korean to me.
By the way, I'm in Gyeongnam, too.
You're not in Hapcheon by any chance, are you?
If you are, then you probably live right upstairs from me.
| postfundie wrote: |
| Doctors and Dentists are out to show their staff how educated they are so they are going to speak English...if they don't do this the staff will think they are weak.. |
Thanks. I'll think about that.
Until now, I haven't gotten anything but ad hom attacks.
Jammer 113, thanks! |
Double post but who doesn't like another sexy look at Hyori? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| capebretoncanadian wrote: |
| . . . using your allegedly fluent Korean . . . |
One has to be fluent in Korean in order to ask for conversational practice in Korean?
In that case, Koreans should stop speaking Korean to Korean babies.
And for goodness sakes, don't go in the water until you learn to swim. |
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capebretoncanadian
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| capebretoncanadian wrote: |
| . . . using your allegedly fluent Korean . . . |
One has to be fluent in Korean in order to ask for conversational practice in Korean?
In that case, Koreans should stop speaking Korean to Korean babies.
And for goodness sakes, don't go in the water until you learn to swim. |
Who said you have to? Demand that s%*%&*&*t.......and if ur not satisfied demand some more. Don't be so passive aggresive about it all. Pretend you speak German French whatever. I'm sympathetic to your cause......but not your approach. Demand satisfaction!!
If you let on you don't speak English......isn't the jig up?!
I love my GF....wouldja take a long hard look at Hyori......mercy me!! |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Next time you're in Seoul Tomato, please PM me. I really want to see first hand how you attract so many English speaking Koreans. Beers on me. Not sure how far south you are, but that offer for free immersion lessons is still on the table (zero English guarantee) as well, any time you want to take me up on it. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hello, capebretoncanadian!
I'm fairly proficient in Spanish, so I can pretend I'm from Venezuela.
I'll tell them I'm loyal to Hugo Chavez and I hate Americans.
I'll ask them if they thought I was an American and threaten them if they say yes.
| Quote: |
| I love my GF....wouldja take a long hard look at Hyori......mercy me!! |
That depends on whether she's a Fergusonian or not.
Hello, T-J!
Thank you for the invitation, but I go to Seoul only when I absolutely have to.
And every time I absolutely have to go there, I get in and out as fast as I can.
If you're not surrounded by Fergusonians, I envy you.
Everywhere I go in Seoul, I get one Fergusonian grabbing me by the arm, another Fergusonian grabbing me by the leg, and another Fergusonian grabbing me by the <<<beep!>>>.
Now if you will excuse me, I must go look up the Venezuelan National Anthem.
Last edited by tomato on Sat May 23, 2009 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Jammer113 wrote: |
Well, I never called you crazy, I offered a suggestion for another good and fun way to practice Korean, but I do disagree with you, so I'll answer.
■ Do you feel complimented when a Korean speaks to you in Korean?
Nope. I feel normal when a Korean speaks to me in Korean. I feel normal when they speak to me in English. The method a Korean uses to speak to me doesn't tell me anything about myself. It neither compliments nor insults me. Rather, it tells me something about the Korean.
■ Do you have a feeling of pride after having a conversation in a second language?
Not any more. Well, sometimes. I usually don't understand everything in Korean. I usually can't make or understand jokes. If that happens, I'm happy. Not prideful, but satisfied.
■ Do you have a feeling of pride after getting some sort of transaction done in a second language?
Not anymore. I do get a feeling of satisfaction when I can do something which I previously couldn't. For example, I can have conversations, but I can't read newspapers. When I am able to read newspapers, I'll be happy.
■ Do you have a feeling of joy when you learn a word, expression, or grammatical point in the field?
No. I don't care about words, expressions, or grammatical points. I care about communicating. I do enjoy communicating with people. If Koreans can't communicate in English, and I don't expect anyone in Korea to speak English, I want to communicate with them in Korean. If they cannot communicate perfectly in English, I'd rather communicate in Korean so that I can catch their subtle emotions which they cannot show through English.
■ Do you enjoy the challenge of having a second language experience without a first language available for a safety net?
Not really. But at the same time, I feel no need for a safety net. If one is available, I'll use it when I'm tired.. if it isn't available, I'll go boldly forward.
■ If your answer to any of the above questions is yes, then do you appreciate Koreans who make these feelings possible?
Nope. In specific, I don't ask Koreans to do anything for me. I don't expect them to see the world from my perspective. I don't expect them to see my problems from my perspective.
I expect them to view the world from their own perspective, which includes a social order partly based on English ability, which often includes an ingrained fear/dislike of English. As such, I am happy when Koreans can, or try, to see the world from my perspective, but I don't ever ask for it. Either way, I appreciate the Koreans' broadening world view, not their ability to make me happy.
■ Would you like to learn the Korean language well enough to communicate with Koreans who do not know English?
I'd like to learn Korean well enough to speak with every Korean in existence, read every Korean book written throughout history, and speak and write to a level that Koreans cannot distinguish my speaking and writing from another Korean. I've got a ways to go.
■ If your answer to either of the above two questions is yes, then do you prefer the company of Korean-speaking Koreans over the company of
English-speaking Koreans?
Nope.
■ If your answer to the above question is no, why not?
I prefer the company of Koreans whom I like. I prefer the company of Koreans I'm comfortable with. If I'm comfortable with them, I'm happy to speak in English. I'm happy to speak in Korean. Almost every Korean I know prefers Korean. Almost every Korean I meet on the street on a semi-regular basis speaks to me in Korean. Even the Koreans who want to learn English from me prefer Korean. They struggle and fight to speak English. They are relieved if we switch to Korean a bit. I respect their struggle.
Usually, when I go out, the conversation is in Korean. If a 'Hi' get's thrown in there, I appreciate the attempt at cultural exchange. If a person fearfully points to a total on a cash register, rather than risk an embarrassing inability to communicate, I feel compassion for their fear, hand them the money, and answer appropriately in Korean. |
Well said and well put. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| So, tomato, for the fourth time, why don't you try a language exchange? You keep ignoring my question. |
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capebretoncanadian
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
Hello, capebretoncanadian!
I'm fairly proficient in Spanish, so I can pretend I'm from Venezuela.
I'll tell them I'm loyal to Hugo Chavez and I hate Americans.
I'll ask them if they thought I was an American and threaten them if they say yes.
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Perfect I think you got yourself a winning formula right there. Please post video and/or audio of any occurences of this situation. It would be worth a hearty laugh.  |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| So, tomato, for the fourth time, why don't you try a language exchange? You keep ignoring my question. |
I didn't realize that.
I thought I kept answering it.
Anyway, I'll be sure I answer it this time.
■ A repeated statement is not necessarily true.
Big deal, so you told me four times that I should join a language exchange.
That doesn't mean it's true.
The German newspapers repeatedly said that the Jews were a menace.
What would you do if someone told you four times that you should stick toothpicks in your ears?
■ It takes a lot of authority to say what another person should do.
The Jehovah's Witnesses know they should refuse blood transfusions because Charles Taze Russell told them to.
The Christian Scientists know they should refuse any medical treatment because Mary Baker Eddy told them to.
The People's Temple members knew they should drink cyanide because Jim Jones told them to.
Russell, Eddy, and Jones, in turn, got their authority from God.
Is that where YOU get YOUR authority?
■ I resent the notion that speaking Korean to Koreans in Korea is at anyone else's expense.
I resent it when Koreans make that implication, and I resent it when people like you make that implication.
Nobody in South America ever complained about me speaking Spanish or Quechua, so I don't understand why anyone in Korea complains about my speaking Korean.
Since I'm not hurting anybody by speaking Korean, I don't see why I should have to pay for it.
■ I think I am a very intelligent person and am capable of other things besides speaking my own language.
I would like to prove that I am a multi-faceted and multi-talented person.
If that prove to some Koreans that all wegukin's are not Bokanovsky twins, that would render a service not only to myself, but to other wegukin's.
On the other hand, if I take part in the silly talk which prevails in circles of foreign language study, that will only reinforce the myth that wegukin's sit around all day talking about do-you-like-pizza and do-you-like-kimchi.
■ What works for you might not work for someone else.
I can't wear clothes that fit you, I can't take medicine which was prescribed for you, and I can participate in activities which interest you.
I could just as easily turn it around and ask you why you don't do everything I do.
I am currently teaching a blind Korean child how to read Braille music.
Why don't YOU teach blind Korean children how to read Braille music?
I am currently sharing what I know about Italian opera with a child who wants to become an opera singer.
Why don't YOU share what YOU know about Italian opera with children who wants to become opera singers?
I once gave a violin performance with local piano students accompanying me.
Why don't YOU give a violin performance with local piano students accompanying YOU?
I once taught a Korean child how to play the guitar.
Why don't YOU teach Korean children how to play the guitar?
I used to go to the public library and read picture books to preschool Korean kids.
Why don't YOU go to the public library and read picture books to preschool Korean kids?
I used to go to Japanese class.
Why don't YOU go to Japanese class?
I used to go to Korean sign language class.
Why don't YOU go to Korean sign language class?
I used to go to ocarina class.
Why don't YOU go to ocarina class?
I used to go to danso class.
Why don't YOU go to danso class?
I used to go to kayageum class.
Why don't YOU go to kayageum class?
Unless every single one of these activities seems attractive to you, you and I are different people with different interests, different skills, and different needs. |
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KimSuBok
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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If you study sociolinguistics you will see that a lot of research has been done on the topic of language choice. Korea is very much a tribal society where the world (and it's people) is divided into two distinct categories. The two categories are Korean, and Foreign. It's that simple. Koreans are shocked and amazed when foreigners speak Korean, while at the same time are dismayed when someone of Korean blood cannot speak the language for whatever reason (adoption abroad, emmigration, etc.).
The Korean language is used to signal identity. Using Korean with a foreigner means that you are accepting him/her into the sphere of all things Korean. Using English, no matter the proficiency, signals that the relationship between the Korean and foreigners is ... well foreign.
Sometimes I hate it when Koreans deny me the opportunity to use Korean. I feel very much like I've been rejected.... but there are other times when I'm happy that they don't see me as Korean because it frees me from some social obligations that go along with being allowed into the Korean sphere. Here I'm talking about things like using the right terms of address (형님, 사장님, 선배 etc.) and from having to work the insane hours that Koreans have to work.
In the case of wanting to be allowed entry into Korean society this admonition comes to mind: "Be careful what you wish for!" |
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agoodmouse
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Location: Anyang
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| KimSuBok wrote: |
| In the case of wanting to be allowed entry into Korean society this admonition comes to mind: "Be careful what you wish for!" |
All true words. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:30 am Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| KimSuBok wrote: |
| Korea is very much a tribal society where the world (and it's people) is divided into two distinct categories. |
When I came here, I was surprised to see schools advertised as 외국어 학원's even though the only language they taught was English.
Apparently, English is the world's only 외국어.
| Quote: |
| The two categories are Korean, and Foreign. It's that simple. |
I am sometimes surprised at how Korean children view the rest of the world. I have had children ask me if I was Japanese and I have had children ask me if I was Chinese.
A group of children were introducing another child to me, and the child got confused over whether I was a 미국인 or a 외국인, and asked what the difference was. I told the child that all 미국인's are 외국인's but not all 외국인's are 미국인's. I was going to explain further, but that seemed to be all the child could take in one dosage.
| Quote: |
| Koreans are shocked and amazed when foreigners speak Korean, while at the same time are dismayed when someone of Korean blood cannot speak the language for whatever reason (adoption abroad, emmigration, etc.). |
I was once at an October festival with a Chinese-American, who never cracked open a Korean book, and a Korean-American who knew so little Korean that she had to speak to Koreans in English. Guess which one the strangers grabbed on the shoulder and said, "캔아이헬프튜."
| Quote: |
| The Korean language is used to signal identity. |
I wondered why the dictionary listed "우리 나라" for Korea, "우리 말" for Korean, and "우리 나라 꽃" for Rose of Sharon.
Using Korean with a foreigner means that you are accepting him/her into the sphere of all things Korean. Using English, no matter the proficiency, signals that the relationship between the Korean and foreigners is ... well foreign.
| Quote: |
| If you study sociolinguistics you will see that a lot of research has been done on the topic of language choice. |
This is the first time I've ever heard all this.
For 9 years, I have been wondering why the Koreans treat me like an imbecile and all I've gotten was messages like "you're crazy," "you're paranoid," and "you got a chip on your shoulder."
Could you supply the documentation on this so I can study further?
Or if you don't have the documentation handy, could you write to your professor and ask?
I hate to impose on you, but I think you have the answer which I have been looking for for a long time. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
| So, tomato, for the fourth time, why don't you try a language exchange? You keep ignoring my question. |
I didn't realize that.
I thought I kept answering it.
Anyway, I'll be sure I answer it this time.
■ A repeated statement is not necessarily true.
Big deal, so you told me four times that I should join a language exchange.
That doesn't mean it's true.
The German newspapers repeatedly said that the Jews were a menace.
What would you do if someone told you four times that you should stick toothpicks in your ears?
■ It takes a lot of authority to say what another person should do.
The Jehovah's Witnesses know they should refuse blood transfusions because Charles Taze Russell told them to.
The Christian Scientists know they should refuse any medical treatment because Mary Baker Eddy told them to.
The People's Temple members knew they should drink cyanide because Jim Jones told them to.
Russell, Eddy, and Jones, in turn, got their authority from God.
Is that where YOU get YOUR authority? |
Wow!  So you're comparing me to the nazis or to crazed cultists for trying to make a helpful suggestion? Paranoid much?
Look, let be try to make myself clear: I'm not *ordering* you to do a language exchange (I wouldn't presume) so I'm not claiming authority to say what you should do. I just think it would be helpful, and I don't understand your refusal to try it, which is why I'm interested to know what your reasons are, which is why I repeatedly asked a question (rather than repeated a statement). I mean, obviously this issue is important to you so I'd think you'd be interested in trying out solutions.
It may not be the right solution for you, but how will you know until you try it?
| tomato wrote: |
■ I resent the notion that speaking Korean to Koreans in Korea is at anyone else's expense.
I resent it when Koreans make that implication, and I resent it when people like you make that implication.
Nobody in South America ever complained about me speaking Spanish or Quechua, so I don't understand why anyone in Korea complains about my speaking Korean.
Since I'm not hurting anybody by speaking Korean, I don't see why I should have to pay for it. |
I'm not sure how this is relevant. You don't pay for a language exchange. You spend one hour talking in Korean and then another hour talking in English.
I understand that you don't think this should be necessary but think of it as a stepping stone to greater fluency. Then once you start to achieve that fluency you'll be able to ditch the language exchange and do what you want to do, which is speak freely to people all around you.
Is it not your goal to speak Korean freely to Koreans all around you? If it is, I'm saying a language exchange can bring you closer to it.
| tomato wrote: |
■ I think I am a very intelligent person and am capable of other things besides speaking my own language.
I would like to prove that I am a multi-faceted and multi-talented person.
If that prove to some Koreans that all wegukin's are not Bokanovsky twins, that would render a service not only to myself, but to other wegukin's.
On the other hand, if I take part in the silly talk which prevails in circles of foreign language study, that will only reinforce the myth that wegukin's sit around all day talking about do-you-like-pizza and do-you-like-kimchi. |
Again, I don't see how this is relevant. What you talk about in a language exchange is entirely up to you and your partner, so you won't be taking part in any silly talk. What's to stop you from proving you are multi-faceted and talented? You can talk about, or learn how to talk about, your other facets and talents. You're in control.
| tomato wrote: |
■ What works for you might not work for someone else.
I can't wear clothes that fit you, I can't take medicine which was prescribed for you, and I can participate in activities which interest you. |
Well maybe it won't work but you have nothing to lose by trying.
| tomato wrote: |
I could just as easily turn it around and ask you why you don't do everything I do.
I am currently teaching a blind Korean child how to read Braille music.
Why don't YOU teach blind Korean children how to read Braille music?
I am currently sharing what I know about Italian opera with a child who wants to become an opera singer.
Why don't YOU share what YOU know about Italian opera with children who wants to become opera singers?
I once gave a violin performance with local piano students accompanying me.
Why don't YOU give a violin performance with local piano students accompanying YOU?
I once taught a Korean child how to play the guitar.
Why don't YOU teach Korean children how to play the guitar?
I used to go to the public library and read picture books to preschool Korean kids.
Why don't YOU go to the public library and read picture books to preschool Korean kids?
I used to go to Japanese class.
Why don't YOU go to Japanese class?
I used to go to Korean sign language class.
Why don't YOU go to Korean sign language class?
I used to go to ocarina class.
Why don't YOU go to ocarina class?
I used to go to danso class.
Why don't YOU go to danso class?
I used to go to kayageum class.
Why don't YOU go to kayageum class?
Unless every single one of these activities seems attractive to you, you and I are different people with different interests, different skills, and different needs. |
Right. As it happens, none of those things you mention above are things that we are both interested in. They're all things that you are interested in but I'm not. However, there is one interest we share: learning Korean. If we shared an interest in learning the kayageum and I found it frustrating I might welcome your advice, or at least I might test it out before deciding it wasn't right for me.
All I'm saying is it wouldn't hurt to give a language exchange a try. It might not work or it might turn out to be the key to getting the practice you need. |
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