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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| But you're letting the boogymen win by cowering to such fears. |
You wouldn't be terrified shitless if you suddenly lost your child in a crowd? It's one of my worse nightmares.
Women who abuse kids tend to do it during the course of prolonged contact. Men who abuse are often opportunistic, looking for a chance to fill some sexual need. A woman is generally not going to grab your kid and **** him in a disused parking lot. Certain men just might.
When (if) you have kids and you have to confront these issues (like what instructions you're going to give your kid for in case certain worse case scenarios come to pass) you'll probably find yourself instructing them to seek assistance from strange women (not strange men).
I'd also be inclined to instruct my boy to approach a group of women, rather than a mixed couple, too.
You talk about a .001 risk (which you pulled out your arse) very flippantly. The consequences of your child hitting the 'jackpot' are so horrific, that even very slim risks need to be considered very carefully and planned for. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| But you're letting the boogymen win by cowering to such fears. |
You wouldn't be terrified shitless if you suddenly lost your child in a crowd? It's one of my worse nightmares.
Women who abuse kids tend to do it during the course of prolonged contact. Men who abuse are often opportunistic, looking for a chance to fill some sexual need. A woman is generally not going to grab your kid and **** him in a disused parking lot. Certain men just might.
When (if) you have kids and you have to confront these issues (like what instructions you're going to give your kid for in case certain worse case scenarios come to pass) you'll probably find yourself instructing them to seek assistance from strange women (not strange men).
I'd also be inclined to instruct my boy to approach a group of women, rather than a mixed couple, too.
You talk about a .001 risk (which you pulled out your arse) very flippantly. The consequences of your child hitting the 'jackpot' are so horrific, that even very slim risks need to be considered very carefully and planned for. |
Of course I'd be terrified shitless, but I'd be more afraid if there was no one he could find to help than some random guy. And I do teach my students things like Internet safety and whatnot. But the fact of the matter is that parents, especially westerners, get so worked up about bogymen that they often give them much more attention than much more likely threats, and create paranoia that in themselves can be mildly traumatising. I grew up around Vancouver during the Clifford Olsen crime wave (child abductor / rapist / murderer) and remember once running home in terror after a stranger stopped his car to ask me something when I was about ten years old. For weeks afterwards I was afraid to walk to school, especially as rumours of spottings of him and other abductors, real or fictional came up everywhere. All along, statistically, I would have been more at risk from peopel we knew than those we didn't. Was it good that schools gave out so many warnings about offenders when I went? I guess, though quite frankly it seems that Korean children are much more comfortable being out in public by themselves and not worrying about it where people are more blissfully ignorant.
Basically if you live your life in fear of male violence the violent males win. So do the violent females who use this prejudice to slip under the radar. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| But you're letting the boogymen win by cowering to such fears. |
You wouldn't be terrified shitless if you suddenly lost your child in a crowd? It's one of my worse nightmares.
Women who abuse kids tend to do it during the course of prolonged contact. Men who abuse are often opportunistic, looking for a chance to fill some sexual need. A woman is generally not going to grab your kid and **** him in a disused parking lot. Certain men just might.
When (if) you have kids and you have to confront these issues (like what instructions you're going to give your kid for in case certain worse case scenarios come to pass) you'll probably find yourself instructing them to seek assistance from strange women (not strange men).
I'd also be inclined to instruct my boy to approach a group of women, rather than a mixed couple, too.
You talk about a .001 risk (which you pulled out your arse) very flippantly. The consequences of your child hitting the 'jackpot' are so horrific, that even very slim risks need to be considered very carefully and planned for. |
Of course I'd be terrified shitless, but I'd be more afraid if there was no one he could find to help than some random guy. And I do teach my students things like Internet safety and whatnot. But the fact of the matter is that parents, especially westerners, get so worked up about bogymen that they often give them much more attention than much more likely threats, and create paranoia that in themselves can be mildly traumatising. I grew up around Vancouver during the Clifford Olsen crime wave (child abductor / rapist / murderer) and remember once running home in terror after a stranger stopped his car to ask me something when I was about ten years old. For weeks afterwards I was afraid to walk to school, especially as rumours of spottings of him and other abductors, real or fictional came up everywhere. All along, statistically, I would have been more at risk from peopel we knew than those we didn't. Was it good that schools gave out so many warnings about offenders when I went? I guess, though quite frankly it seems that Korean children are much more comfortable being out in public by themselves and not worrying about it where people are more blissfully ignorant.
Basically if you live your life in fear of male violence the violent males win. So do the violent females who use this prejudice to slip under the radar. |
Don't talk like a w@nker. I don't spend every waking moment living in fear of male violence. You're sounding like the antithesis of some militant feminist nut at the minute.
Not only that, you keep harping on about something that just about everyone knows, that you your kids or anyone is more likely to harmed by friends and family than strangers. You are taking this far from the original discussion and seem to have completely missed my point to MOS.
All this was basically produced as a litmus test. In the event that your child is lost/in trouble, which gender do you prefer your child to approach? That is the litmus test of whether you really think women pose the same risk as a man. And it won't be 'moral superiority' you are considering, but the knowledge that a random man is far more likely than a random woman to harbour certain hungers and lusts that may make him a peril to your child.
If you think your child is statistically likely to meet the same probability of danger on a chance meeting with a male as a female, then you are extraordinarily naive. And if you are not instructing your little kids to seek out women over lone males in the (horrible) event they are lost/in trouble, you are coming close to negligence.
BTW, a man did try to get me into his car. It became quite frightening, as I was by myself in a lonely tourist spot, and he obviously knew his way around and tried to cut me off in his car as I escaped on foot. He became more and more enraged as I refused to go with him and I knew I was in serious danger. Luckily an opportunity came up for me to escape him. If he had suceeded, I don't know what would have happened, and never dwell on it. But has always bothered me that I never got his number plate. I was just thinking of getting away. But perhaps if I'd got that, it might have been useful to the police. I'm sure I wasn't the only unlucky girl to cross his path. These things do happen, and just saying that "most times it's going to be OK, and you're more likely to be strangled by your Auntie Kitty, and so I"m not going to bother talking to the kids about this" is just not good enough. Prediscussed strategies are important and may be vital to your kids survival.
Luckily for me, my father had warned me about a time his younger sister (my aunt) had nearly been dragged into a van by four men. She'd fought tooth and nail and escaped. For that reason, I have always been on the alert when a car pulls up next to me on the street. The naive kid not on the alert is the one most likely to be targetted by a predator. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| This is interesting MOS. I tried to do some more reading on it as there are articles that seem to contradict this, or give more nuanced discussions of it. I found a few discussions pointing out that although at face value the crime is the same, reasons why women committed the crime, or the circumstances of their involvement often differ markedly. Also, there was a mention that when all the characteristics of the crime (such as whether it involved a weapon, or the amount of drugs involved) are looked at, the disparity between the gap closes. |
Yes, when you read about stuff like this, naturally one's first thought is to attribute the differences in sentencing to varying characteristics of the crimes compared. But that is something that any research study on the subject would have to address, at the methodology stage, for results to be considered scientific, let alone publishable. Notice something significant in the paragraphs of the study I quoted above:
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For example, in a study of sentences meted out to 6562 offenders convicted in ten federal district courts, Hagan, Nagel, and Albonetti found that gender affects sentence severity in white collar cases, even after controlling for variables such as the offender's prior record, the number and severity of the charged offenses, the type of offense, and the defendant's age, ethnicity, education, and physical health. In a subsequent study, Hagan, Nagel, and Albonetti analyzed the sentences of 1239 defendants convicted in the state of New York. They controlled for prior record, offense characteristics, and offender characteristics such as race, age, and employment, and found that females were treated preferentially at sentencing.
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| I must say though, that were I a judge I would be reluctant to impose harsh sentences on a mother of young kids, because I'd have to weigh the need for punishment against the default punishment the children would incur by the loss of their mother. There are many cases in Britain of women being thrown in gaol for ridiculous things, like not paying their TV licence. Their children suffer disproportionately as a result. |
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this, for several reasons. 1) arguably (and I admit willingly not everybody would agree with this), imposing an extended sentence on a father with children would in some circumstances impose just as onerous a burden on the children, but courts don't hesitate (as far as I know) to sentence the father on the crime anyway.
2) I think there are ways of sentencing a woman to a degree that is justified by the crime while lessening the impact on the children. One recent study, for example, supported having the children spend more time with the mother in prison because it had a positive effect on the children's development. I know that sounds a little bizarre, but as you know sometimes the results of social research studies can be counterintuitive.
3) many judges (in the US and Canada) openly admit that they give women lighter sentences for the same crime simply because they are women, not on whether or not they have children, and
4) if judges consistently award lighter sentences to female offenders over a long period of time, sooner or later the male offenders are going to organize and start a class-action suit. They would argue that this consistent trend violates the equality of treatment provisions in the US and Canadian constitutions, and they would be legally justified in doing so. That's going to cause chaos in the justice system, with potentially thousands of sentences being forced into review. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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he's 28, she's 18....
18!
unless laws have changed, I couldn't buy a car by myself when I was 18 nor legally drink alcohol in a bar....
AGE will be a factor, ion and of itself and due to power dynamics in the ten year difference, despite cries that favortism was done because of her gender. And she isn't charged int he killing itself is she? in kidnapping and accessory AFTER the fact.
He'll probably get life, her 15 years. That's just. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| But you're letting the boogymen win by cowering to such fears. |
You wouldn't be terrified shitless if you suddenly lost your child in a crowd? It's one of my worse nightmares.
Women who abuse kids tend to do it during the course of prolonged contact. Men who abuse are often opportunistic, looking for a chance to fill some sexual need. A woman is generally not going to grab your kid and **** him in a disused parking lot. Certain men just might.
When (if) you have kids and you have to confront these issues (like what instructions you're going to give your kid for in case certain worse case scenarios come to pass) you'll probably find yourself instructing them to seek assistance from strange women (not strange men).
I'd also be inclined to instruct my boy to approach a group of women, rather than a mixed couple, too.
You talk about a .001 risk (which you pulled out your arse) very flippantly. The consequences of your child hitting the 'jackpot' are so horrific, that even very slim risks need to be considered very carefully and planned for. |
Of course I'd be terrified shitless, but I'd be more afraid if there was no one he could find to help than some random guy. And I do teach my students things like Internet safety and whatnot. But the fact of the matter is that parents, especially westerners, get so worked up about bogymen that they often give them much more attention than much more likely threats, and create paranoia that in themselves can be mildly traumatising. I grew up around Vancouver during the Clifford Olsen crime wave (child abductor / rapist / murderer) and remember once running home in terror after a stranger stopped his car to ask me something when I was about ten years old. For weeks afterwards I was afraid to walk to school, especially as rumours of spottings of him and other abductors, real or fictional came up everywhere. All along, statistically, I would have been more at risk from peopel we knew than those we didn't. Was it good that schools gave out so many warnings about offenders when I went? I guess, though quite frankly it seems that Korean children are much more comfortable being out in public by themselves and not worrying about it where people are more blissfully ignorant.
Basically if you live your life in fear of male violence the violent males win. So do the violent females who use this prejudice to slip under the radar. |
Don't talk like a w@nker. I don't spend every waking moment living in fear of male violence. You're sounding like the antithesis of some militant feminist nut at the minute.
Not only that, you keep harping on about something that just about everyone knows, that you your kids or anyone is more likely to harmed by friends and family than strangers. You are taking this far from the original discussion and seem to have completely missed my point to MOS.
All this was basically produced as a litmus test. In the event that your child is lost/in trouble, which gender do you prefer your child to approach? That is the litmus test of whether you really think women pose the same risk as a man. And it won't be 'moral superiority' you are considering, but the knowledge that a random man is far more likely than a random woman to harbour certain hungers and lusts that may make him a peril to your child.
If you think your child is statistically likely to meet the same probability of danger on a chance meeting with a male as a female, then you are extraordinarily naive. And if you are not instructing your little kids to seek out women over lone males in the (horrible) event they are lost/in trouble, you are coming close to negligence.
BTW, a man did try to get me into his car. It became quite frightening, as I was by myself in a lonely tourist spot, and he obviously knew his way around and tried to cut me off in his car as I escaped on foot. He became more and more enraged as I refused to go with him and I knew I was in serious danger. Luckily an opportunity came up for me to escape him. If he had suceeded, I don't know what would have happened, and never dwell on it. But has always bothered me that I never got his number plate. I was just thinking of getting away. But perhaps if I'd got that, it might have been useful to the police. I'm sure I wasn't the only unlucky girl to cross his path. These things do happen, and just saying that "most times it's going to be OK, and you're more likely to be strangled by your Auntie Kitty, and so I"m not going to bother talking to the kids about this" is just not good enough. Prediscussed strategies are important and may be vital to your kids survival.
Luckily for me, my father had warned me about a time his younger sister (my aunt) had nearly been dragged into a van by four men. She'd fought tooth and nail and escaped. For that reason, I have always been on the alert when a car pulls up next to me on the street. The naive kid not on the alert is the one most likely to be targetted by a predator. |
Yes, all things considered you're more at risk from men than you are from women, all the more so if you're a guy who's physically stronger than 60% of men but 99.9% of women. But I do hope that I'll teach my kids / students to make value judgements to trust people based on their character, not their appearances. If I had a little kid I think one of the first thing I'd teach him is to try to find someone in a position of authority over a situation (security guard, department store greeter, teacher, whatever) if he was lost, but thankfully I don't have to deal with very little kids. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
he's 28, she's 18....
18!
unless laws have changed, I couldn't buy a car by myself when I was 18 nor legally drink alcohol in a bar....
AGE will be a factor, ion and of itself and due to power dynamics in the ten year difference, despite cries that favortism was done because of her gender. And she isn't charged int he killing itself is she? in kidnapping and accessory AFTER the fact.
He'll probably get life, her 15 years. That's just. |
십팔! indeed. Yes, there needs to be an arbitrary age at which adult responibilities begin, but I've known too many 18-year-olds who sure weren't ready to face responsibilty and for whom someone else would be partly accuntable if they went off the deep end and did something like this. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
he's 28, she's 18....
18!
unless laws have changed, I couldn't buy a car by myself when I was 18 nor legally drink alcohol in a bar....
AGE will be a factor, ion and of itself and due to power dynamics in the ten year difference, despite cries that favortism was done because of her gender. And she isn't charged int he killing itself is she? in kidnapping and accessory AFTER the fact.
He'll probably get life, her 15 years. That's just. |
Nothing just about it, and it wasn't after the fact. She was seen alive in her presence on the video footage. She may have contributed to her death. She may have helped lure her, and she probably felt safe with a woman around.
And 18 is adult. Not sure which century you come from, but at 18 you can vote for the politicians of your choice, pay taxes, pose for Playboy, drink, smoke, travel alone, run for public office, join the armed forces, marry, and run a corporation.
At 18 you can own deed to a home, you can have power of attorney over someone, you can execute a will, have sex and make babies, you can drive a car and own a car, and you can work as a paramedic or any other job you qualify for.
So there is no reason why you can't go to jail for life when you take part in the murder of a child.
Is she guilty or not, no one knows until the judge's gavel strikes the circle thingie in the court room.
But IF she is, no special consideration of her age should be given. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Sick psychology of female sex criminals
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It is an illusion that most women are far removed from being able to commit these sort of savage acts. For the majority of men and women, it is guilt and remorse that gets in the way of killing.
The difficulty is to understand how and why people, especially women, commit these sorts of crimes when the usual societal rules are still in place.
The important thing to realise is that there is such a genetic variety among people that there will always be psychotics and sociopaths. Women are just as likely to be miswired in this way as men but they have the extra restraining factor of cultural female norms and genetics, which make them more aware of the consquences of their actions, both for themselves and their victims. Men's wiring is simpler: it's relatively easy to train a man to be a mindless killer, as we have seen repeatedly and frequently over the centuries.
The issue of why women abuse children and other women is such an emotional one that what people often fail to recognise is that there are more differences within the sexes than there are between them. Women can be just as aggressive and cruel as men, given the specific set of circumstances that brings forth that behaviour.
What tends to be true is that even if a woman has the capacity for atrocities inside her, the catalyst to bring those behaviours to the surface often seems to be the presence of a man who lacks the imagination to empathise with his victims or restrain his desire for power and sexual or violent gratification. Women who abuse are less unusual than we might like to think. Men tend to be the more common abusers, especially of children, but when a woman does do it, they often do it horribly. Often it seems to be about anger rather than sexual or power gratification. The anger could be due to her resentment that her charismatic man, as she sees him, wants someone else.
This puts her in a dilemma: either she helps him procure the victim, or she risks losing her lover.
Once the victim has been obtained, it could be that she copes by blaming them for tempting her man and takes out her revenge by colluding in their physical and mental torture. Becoming active in the torture also protects against the risk of a power shift, where the man ends up more interested in the victim than in his wife or partner.
The other theory is that it's pretty thrilling and exciting for someone with catastrophically low self-esteem or low intelligence to be chosen by a man who recognises no superior authority but exhibits pure Nietzschean free will. There can be a horrible Faustian pact based on what therapists call "splitting and projecting": the fact that she worships this special man and subsumes herself to him, gives her � perversely and additionally � status and position. But this reflected glory only exists in relation to him. If she leaves him � or he leaves her because she ceases to please him � she loses that status and ends up even lower than before.
To be trapped in the centre of a great secret with a man perceived to be so charismatic can also be hugely exciting. There is something thrilling, compelling and obsessive about the idea. Added to that is the fact that it's just the two of you against the world. You have both burned your bridges and are outlaws together.
The truth, however, is that you can't have a theory that covers all the reasons why women can commit these sorts of atrocities. There is no satisfactory explanation that can be neatly packaged. Some women have a very poor mental grasp and are swayed by primitive and horrible beliefs.
Some people are, in the old-fashioned lingo, evil. |
I was reading this article and reminded me of the discussion that took place on this thread. |
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crossmr
Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Location: Hwayangdong, Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Her 10-year-old son told her then that he was approached by two people in a car but ran away before anyone spoke to him. |
I remember that safety video from when I was a kid. Stranger Danger or something like that.
The video had a kid walking down the street and some guy struggling to pull a box out of his van. Before the guy can even complete "Hey kid" the kid bolts in the opposite direction like a bomb was about to go off.
if even half the kids bought into that the cities would be full of nothing but panting kids, drenched in sweat when they reached home every time somebody sneezed. |
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