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The Depression Thread
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
The suckers rally is near an end. Here comes round two:

http://english.caijing.com.cn/2009-06-09/110180019.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/141605-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-1

http://seekingalpha.com/article/141851-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-2

http://seekingalpha.com/article/142057-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-3

Quote:
To give you an idea of how big a problem these deficits are, consider that the US government could tax its citizens 100% of their earnings and NOT have a balanced budget.

Don't tell China.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
mises wrote:
The suckers rally is near an end. Here comes round two:

http://english.caijing.com.cn/2009-06-09/110180019.html

http://seekingalpha.com/article/141605-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-1

http://seekingalpha.com/article/141851-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-2

http://seekingalpha.com/article/142057-the-coming-economic-collapse-part-3

Quote:
To give you an idea of how big a problem these deficits are, consider that the US government could tax its citizens 100% of their earnings and NOT have a balanced budget.

Don't tell China.


Yeah. I don't know how this ends.
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Pluto



Joined: 19 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can't we get this guy on CNBC or FBN?

Check this out. (Mises, you'll like this one)

He certainly beats your run of the mill SIFP.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Median home prices drop below 1989 levels in some parts of Southland

In parts of Southern California, the housing crash has upended a basic tenet of the American dream: that home values always increase over the long term.

Properties in several areas are selling for less than they did 20 years ago, and that's not even counting the effects of inflation.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-cheaphomes10-2009jun10,0,4802553.story?page=1

And they'll probably fall to levels of 30 years ago due to the flood of ALT-A resets in the next 24 months.

http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/financing-the-flipping-dream-alt-a-mortgages-and-california-mortgage-equity-giants-number-one-alt-a-owner-occupied-state-is-california-say-what-alt-a-and-pay-option-arms-fueled-out-of-state-bu/

Quote:
If you want further proof how horrific these products are, take a look at how many of the Alt-A and pay Option ARM products originated with a second lien. That is, low down or nothing down fantasy buyers. In California, there are currently floating around 186,917 Alt-A mortgages with a second lien on them. You can rest assured that 90 to 99 percent of these loans will implode in the upcoming months. This is where your piggy back loans and 80-10-10 crap came about. I remember when zero down was a crazy way to suck in unknowing investors to thousand dollar seminars but it actually became a mainstream way to buy a home.

Before you even wonder how safe these loans are 41.6 percent of California Alt-A mortgage holders already have one late in the last 12 months! Keep in mind that most of this junk hasn�t even hit recast points and nearly half are already late with one payment:

businessweekoptionarm

Some other useful information regarding the California Alt-A products are that 9.3 percent are already in foreclosure and 5.2 percent are REO. And you�ll love how thoroughly these loans were vetted:

alt-liar-loans

82.8 percent of the California Alt-A or pay Option ARM products were either low or no doc loans! Bwahahaha! This is pure insanity. These loans are going to go bad and go bad in an epic way. And many of the loans with a recast period haven�t even hit their major stride:

recast-reset

What is troubling is that out of the 2.1 million Alt-A loans 27.9 percent are on non-owner occupied property. That is, many of these are failed flips. So let us take a hypothetical case where someone in California had owned their home with a nice safe 30 year mortgage. They stayed up too late at night and saw one of those brokers with the Hawaiian shirt and bad tan talking about flipping real estate around the country. So they decide to take out two Alt-A loans and buy a property in Nevada and Arizona. Technically on paper this person in California is in a safe secure product but they have now leveraged themselves to the hills and have put their entire balance sheet at risk. For practical reasons we don�t have the exact data but from the high non-owner occupancy rate of other states, I assure this happened and happened in a big way.

Hopefully this gives you a new perspective on the Alt-A and pay Option ARM world. Things are evolving in this arena and it will be interesting to see what kind of dent is made when the PPIP taxpayer handout goes into effect this July. Ironically the PPIP has an initial cap of $500 billion, just enough for all the Alt-A loans on irresponsible bank balance sheets. Aren�t you excited that your money is going to go to bailout these kinds of loans? And since banks are so eager to give TARP money back, it would only be responsible to get rid of the PPIP and let them bid on assets with their newfound wealth.


There are huge waves of re-sets in 2011 and 2012. That means prices will fall aggressively in So-Cal (and others) until at least 2013.

http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/businessweekoptionarm.jpg

http://www.deltaga.com/market-commentaries/the-consequences-have-started-to-arrive.html
Quote:
The Consequences Have Started to Arrive

The consequences of adopting a weak dollar and inflationary monetary policy to bail out the economy have begun to manifest themselves, although the real effects of the government's $12.8 trillion dollar recovery plan have only just started to show up. Investors should not be surprised to learn that the commitments, guarantees, and prodigal spending of the past two Administrations have come with harrowing consequences. Surprising or not, these painful consequences are just beginning to appear and are rather insidious in nature.

...

Even with all of this in mind, the biggest negative effect thus far from the Administration's profligacy has shown up in surging bond yields. After hitting a secular low of 2.5% on the 10 year note, yields jumped to 3.9%! Meanwhile, mortgage rates leapt from a low of 4.85% to 5.45% last week, following the move in Treasuries.

Therein lays the problem. The progenitor of this crisis was a collapse in real estate prices and it has shown only a few signs of stabilization in sales, but is still far from a marked recovery in prices. In fact, last month's report on existing home sales showed a drop of 15.4% Y.O.Y. Both mortgage delinquencies and foreclosures reached record levels in Q1 2009 while the months' supply of existing homes actually climbed to 10.2 from 9.6. So while mortgage rates are on the rise, housing fundamentals continue to exhibit weakness.

Those soaring bond yields and mortgage rates will wreak havoc on our debt-imbued economy. Already we saw a report by the Mortgage Bankers Association showing a drop of 16% in the Refinance and Purchase Index for the week ending May 29th. For an economy that has a total debt to GDP ratio of 370%, we can also expect dire repercussions in everything from credit card loans to municipal bonds.

This is why Mr. Bernanke's next move on quantitative easing is so critical. Wednesday's auction of $19 billion in 10 year notes and Thursday's auction of $11 billion in 30 year bonds will be viewed with great anticipation. If Banana Ben steps up his manipulation of bond prices, the current fall in the dollar along with the rise in commodity prices and interest rates will seem inconsequential by comparison in the not too distant future.

Our government risks morphing what would have been a severe deflationary recession into an inflationary recession/depression in the longer term. Their decision to choose the inflationary route is based on the fact that inflation bails out those in debt. Make no mistake, for a country with $11.4 trillion in debt and a 2009 deficit equal to 13% of GDP, inflation is perceived as the only way out. However, inflation can never bail out anything or anyone, it only helps the very rich maintain their purchasing power while robbing it from the rest of the country. It will also be at the great expense of those who have made the mistake of holding their savings in dollar denominated fixed income instruments and who have not protected themselves by owning hard assets.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

from ^ ^ ...

Quote:
It will also be at the great expense of those who have made the mistake of holding their savings in dollar denominated fixed income instruments and who have not protected themselves by owning hard assets.



Sounds like they're quoting what I've written here many times for years.
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Cordova



Joined: 14 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Treasuries Tumble After Auction, Russian Threat to Cut Holdings

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aTYL6r.iI9wU

By Daniel Kruger and Dakin Campbell

June 10 (Bloomberg) -- Treasuries fell, pushing 10-year yields to the highest level since October, as the government sold $19 billion of the securities and Russia said it may switch some reserves from U.S. debt.

The notes drew a yield of 3.99 percent at the sale, the highest since August 2008. The offering was the second of three sales this week that will raise $65 billion, part of the U.S.�s record borrowing program. A Russian central bank official said the nation may buy International Monetary Fund bonds.

�There are an awful lot of Treasuries being auctioned and there�s going to be more and more and more and more,� said Jay Mueller, who manages about $3 billion of bonds at Wells Fargo Capital Management in Milwaukee.

The yield on the 10-year note rose nine basis points, or 0.09 percentage point, to 3.95 percent at 4:50 p.m. in New York, according to BGCantor Market Data. It earlier reached 3.99 percent, the highest since Oct. 16. The 3.125 percent security maturing in May 2019 declined 23/32, or $7.19 per $1,000 face amount, to 93 10/32.

�Four percent�s going to be seen as a very good entry point,� said George Goncalves, chief fixed-income rates strategist at Cantor Fitzgerald LP, one of 16 primary dealers that trade with the Federal Reserve. �It�s proving to be a good spot to draw out value players.�

The 30-year bond yield touched 4.8327 percent, the highest since Oct. 17, 2007. The government is scheduled to sell $11 billion of the securities tomorrow.

�Clearly Disappointing�

Seven bond-trading firms surveyed by Bloomberg News had forecast a yield of 3.975 percent. The sale is a reopening of the record $22 billion 10-year note sale on May 6, which drew a yield of 3.19 percent.

�The auction was clearly disappointing,� said Ira Jersey, head of U.S. interest-rate strategy at RBC Capital Markets in New York, the investment-banking arm of Canada�s biggest lender. �These results don�t bode well for the bond auction tomorrow.�

The bid-to-cover ratio, which gauges demand by comparing the number of bids with the amount of securities sold, was 2.62. It was 2.47 last month and has averaged 2.40 at the past 10 scheduled sales.

Indirect bidders, the class of investors that includes foreign central banks, bought 34.2 percent of the notes, up from 31.9 percent in May. The average at the past 10 scheduled auctions is 25.8 percent.

Russia Switch

Russia�s central bank may switch some of its reserves from Treasuries to International Monetary Fund bonds, the bank�s first deputy chairman, Alexei Ulyukayev, said in Moscow today. His comments were confirmed by a bank official who declined to be named, citing bank policy.

Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin said last month Russia will buy $10 billion of IMF bonds. China is �actively� considering buying as much as $50 billion of the IMF bonds, the State Administration of Foreign Exchange said last week. Brazil�s Finance Minister Guido Mantega said today his country will purchase $10 billion of debt sold by the IMF.

Russia holds $138.4 billion of U.S. debt. China is the largest U.S. creditor, with $767.9 billion. The U.S. government must rely on foreign investors to sustain record borrowing.

The dollar rose against the euro as the yield advantage of 10-year Treasury notes over comparable-maturity German bunds increased to the widest level since October 2007, making the U.S. assets more attractive. The greenback fell earlier as Russia�s announcement added to speculation central banks around the world may try to diversify their reserves away from the U.S. currency.

Foreign Bidding

While leaders of the nations of Brazil, Russia, India and China talk about substituting the dollar, the so-called BRIC countries have increased foreign reserves at the fastest pace since September. The nations added more than $60 billion in foreign reserves in May to limit currency gains, data compiled by central banks and strategists show.

Many of those reserves are still being plowed into U.S. debt securities, according to data from the Fed. Its holdings of Treasuries on behalf of central banks and institutions from China to Norway rose by $68.8 billion, or 3.7 percent, in May, the third most on record, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

The Treasury said bidding from foreigners was above average at its $35 billion three-year note auction yesterday. The sale drew bids for 2.82 times the amount of debt available, rising from 2.66 in May. Investors bought the notes after yields rose more than 50 basis points in less than a week.

Longer maturities are leading losses in the Treasury market in 2009, indicating investors are demanding more yield because of the threat inflation will quicken in coming years.

Trillions

Thirty-year bonds handed investors a 28 percent loss this year, versus 11 percent for 10-year notes and 0.4 percent for two-year securities, according to indexes compiled by Merrill Lynch & Co. Treasuries of all maturities have fallen 6.2 percent this year, according to Merrill indexes. The securities haven�t posted an annual decline since 1998, according to the index.

The U.S. budget deficit climbed to $189.7 billion in May, a record for the month, compared to $165.9 billion a year earlier, the Treasury said today in Washington.

President Barack Obama may borrow $3.25 trillion in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30, almost four times the $892 billion in 2008, according to primary dealer Goldman Sachs Group Inc. The budget deficit is projected to increase to $1.85 trillion in the year ending Sept. 30, equivalent to 13 percent of the nation�s economy, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.

All told, the government and the central bank have spent, lent or committed $12.8 trillion, an amount that approaches the value of everything produced in the country last year, to stem the longest recession since the 1930s.

Loss of Faith

The Fed�s $3.5 billion purchase today of Treasuries maturing between August 2019 and February 2026 brings to $156.528 billion the amount purchased since the $300 billion, six-month program was announced on March 18.

Ten-year yields have risen over 141 basis points since then, complicating the central bank�s mission to lower consumer borrowing costs. Thirty-year fixed-rate mortgages jumped to 5.56 percent from as low as 4.85 percent in April, according to Bankrate.com in North Palm Beach, Florida. Costs for homebuyers are now higher than in December.

�I think the market�s lost faith in the ability of the Fed to control interest rates here,� said Gary Pollack, who helps oversee $12 billion as head of fixed-income trading at Deutsche Bank AG�s Private Wealth Management unit in New York.

Signs of Moderating

The Fed said the U.S. downturn may be slowing in almost half of its regions, while �stringent� loan conditions and a �weak� labor market persist.

�Economic conditions remained weak or deteriorated further� from mid-April through May, while five of 12 Fed districts �noted that the downward trend is showing signs of moderating,� the Fed said today in its Beige Book business survey, published two weeks before officials issue their next monetary policy decision.

The difference between rates on 10-year notes and Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, which reflects the outlook among traders for consumer prices, was 2.09 percentage points, a nine- month high.

To contact the reporters on this story: Daniel Kruger
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RJjr



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even the short term rates are going up.

Our debt is just going to crush us and there's nothing any Republican or Democrat can do about it.

To sum it all up: It's all over but the crying.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing that IMF bonds are better than Treasuries (how can they not be?) but just how much better are they?
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
I'm guessing that IMF bonds are better than Treasuries (how can they not be?) but just how much better are they?


The IMF earns revenue on interest from loans to exploding states. Despite it all, America is more credit worthy than the IMF. The Russians are just jumping on a bandwagon.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/corporate-leverage-peaks-at.html
Quote:
Q1 corporate leverage was 1.34x, unchanged from Q4 2008, a level higher than at any point over the past quarter of a century. Comparable prior peaks have lead the HY default rate by on average 9 months in 90-91 and 01-02, implying an expected peak of corporate defaults in early 2010. What is a bigger threat is that once all the external benefits from assistance and stimulus programs wears off, the "peak" could end up being merely a blip in an accelerating upward trajectory.

As Bank Of America points out: "we remain concerned that we can be witnessing a temporary stabilization in this ratio, similar to the highlighted 1989 episode, which can then take us to the second leg of deterioration to new highs.
In this case default cycle is likely to be pushed well into the future, with an uncertain peak levels. Performance of this ratio over the next few quarters would be crucial in answering this question."


The second "leg" of this bust might actually be worse than the first. Duck and cover.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aqLNecbH0dcg
Quote:
June 12 (Bloomberg) -- Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

Democrats will work on the bill�s details next week as they struggle through �what kind of heartburn� it will cause to agree on how to pay for revamping the health-care system, Rangel, a New York Democrat, said today. He also said the measure�s cost will reach beyond the $634 billion President Barack Obama proposed in his budget request to Congress as a down payment for the policy changes.

Asked whether the cost of a health-care overhaul would be more than $1 trillion, Rangel said, �the answer is yes.�

House Democrats plan to release their legislation next week. Obama has made a health-care overhaul a top domestic priority and is working with Congress to get legislation to his desk by October.

Democrats in the House and Senate are working on legislation that would require all Americans to have health insurance, prohibit insurers from refusing to cover pre-existing conditions and place other restrictions on the industry.

The legislation would establish online exchanges for individuals to purchase insurance and would require employers to provide health benefits to workers or pay a penalty. Some Democrats also are backing creation of a government-run program to expand coverage to the uninsured. The issue is the subject of bipartisan negotiations with Republican opponents.


Zero Hedge comments:

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/600-billion-in-new-taxes-coming.html
Quote:
Additionally as Obama has pretty much staked his political career on only raising the taxes of those who make over $250,000 per year. That's what - 4, maybe 5 million Americans? So, $600 billion divided by 5 million, that makes... oh, about $120,000 in tax increases per person.

Silver lining - a definite stock recommendation: buy the airlines (preferrably in the next five minutes before Goldman runs oil to over $100 and Delta files for Chapter 44 or whatever iterration of the bankruptcy process they are at now) as sales for one way tickets out of the US skyrocket.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/12/MNH5185OAG.DTL
Quote:
Rep. Pete Stark, a leading congressional author of health reform legislation, called Thursday for a 2 percent income tax surcharge to pay for the health insurance program he predicted Congress and President Obama would enact later this year.


And they STILL won't get anything near universal, single payer coverage. The government will merely force people to take insurance and apply fines to firms who don't offer it. So, households are more broke and firms hire less (legal) workers.
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: "Purchases of U.S. Treasuries will continue, Yosano say Reply with quote

"Purchases of U.S. Treasuries will continue"
Quote:
Finance Minister Kaoru Yosano has said his government is confident about the outlook for U.S. Treasuries, signaling the second-biggest foreign holder of the securities will keep buying them amid record sales.

"We have complete trust in the fact that the U.S. views its strong-dollar policy as fundamental," Yosano, 70, said in an interview Wednesday in Tokyo before attending a Group of Eight meeting of finance ministers starting Friday in Italy. "So our trust in U.S. Treasuries is absolutely unshakable."

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20090613n2.html

I respect the Japanese for at least being reasonable. And as much as the whole situation on the US side disgusts me, I still very much enjoy watching Russia and China squirm...
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An article discussing the 'shadow inventory' of homes for sale (banks not listing homes on their books to keep the illusion of a recovering housing market) has this money quote:

Quote:
This adds up to a staggering number: a total of 3 to 5 million homes, one quarter of the 12 million households in California, are going to flood the market very soon.

http://exiledonline.com/depression-porn-gaming-the-real-estate-market/2/

The era of middle class houses for < 100k in California is back. This is great news, unless you're a bank.
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JongnoGuru



Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Lovely Bubble Years.

Real Estate Debt Can Make You Rich: What You Owe Today Is What You Will Be Worth Tomorrow!!!

2006


wonder if they'll put out a 2nd edition.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^
Quote:
41 used from $1.24


Even GM stock didn't go to zero..
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