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Discussions about legal issues regarding visas
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick thank you for the information about the A.T.E.K. election! i am sorry for my immature posting. I think many of us have seen where this whole mess is heading. The grandiosity of three guys claiming to represent 20,000 teachrs their constant attention seeking, well they are going to get attention now and not what they wanted. I again state that I am not against an association of N.E. T.'s but not a self proclaimed one. it is too late for A.T.E.K. too many mistakes! maybe somebody with the energy and integrity to began again less flamboyantly, more professionally and less confrontationally. I think that what rubbed many people wrong was the attitude that the Koreans are bad, and we are good and there must be a fight. This US against Them attitude was doomed to failure from the start. I would like to see a campaign that promotes a more positive image of foreign teachers, to counter the anti foreigner attitudes of the media. There are lots of great Net's in korea. People who really try , work hard adapt to a difficult situation. they need to be recognized. Picking fights with a people who have fought for centuries and are notoriously stubborn is just a dead end. I am afraid the exenophobic crap hurricane has just began. A.t.E.K. poked a hornets nest, and for what???? Because some are jealous of f-visa holders and some guy couldnt get into a Korean nightclub!!
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ATEK is not going to say much about this right now as they are either unaware of it, dealing with it or just shocked like many of us are.

As for the impact this may have (if all true) on ATEK and on Foreign Teachers in Korea (image-wise) that largely depends on how ATEK deals with this and how Foreigners in the spotlight (big bloggers and contributors to the local papers) deal with this. If the post by S.Mouse is true then there needs to be a quick chopping off of the gangrenous limb and a public condemnation of the person. this shows the Koreans Foreign Educators can police themselves to a degree. ATEK itself should, again if this is all true, immediately expel the culprit and offer public apology for having missed such glaring issues when they selected that person as an officer.

It is sad this is happening and in many ways I disagree with mud-raking and with online witch-hunts. However, the post on the blog linked by S. Mouse is not aggressive, laced with insults or vulgar, it is well constructed and supported by facts and evidence. If it all ends up being accurate then there is not other option for the person described in the post. He should be reported or leave on his own volition before the proverbial crap hits the proverbial fan.

This, sadly, will not go away.
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Ruraljuror



Joined: 08 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was T-J's warning on the previous page about this? Has the story been out on AFEK's forum? I've been very busy the last few weeks and I have no easy access to a scanner, but if this is the kind of stuff that AFEK is up to I really need to get on board ASAP.

Keep up the good work guys.
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rollo



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your read the other blogs and the threads on Daves they wanted the checks dropped! They were violations of "human rights' they even used a teacher to test the regs when she went to renew. Mr Hellman made himself a public figure and seemed to be wanting a fight with f-visa holders and he got a fight, was it clean? no fight is. There are a lot of people with 'problems" teaching in Asia. Many are charismatic hustlers, usually running from something. Beware of those who want to change the world, and internet solicitations. Is there a future for A.T.E.K. probably not, from the beginning it was disorganized, launched a campaign that seemed based on jealousy instead of something that would really help teachers like visa portability or increased penalties for cheating Hagwon owneres. it always felt like one person was driving the association and that that person had a vendetta of some sort. WAgner still will not answere certain direct questions and that is very very suspicious! Beware!!
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KimchiGarden



Joined: 19 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yet another ATEK thread locked and hidden away but an unknown MOD for an unknown reason. Well, I can guess the reason.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KG the reason is clear....

That thread you mention was a sick and disgusting witch hunt where a few people were mud-slinging and making accusations. comments were made along the lines of "will not rest until person X, Y, Z is ruined and out of Korea".

It was a highly personal thread where people named names and posted all sorts of accusations.

It should have been removed long before it was.
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Ruraljuror



Joined: 08 Dec 2007

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
KG the reason is clear....

That thread you mention was a sick and disgusting witch hunt where a few people were mud-slinging and making accusations. comments were made along the lines of "will not rest until person X, Y, Z is ruined and out of Korea".

It was a highly personal thread where people named names and posted all sorts of accusations.

It should have been removed long before it was.




Homer, the reason the thread was "sick and disgusting" was because the allegations were sick and disgusting. But whose fault was that...the person who allegedly committed the "sick and disgusting" acts or the one who brought them to light?

The same thing was said about the infamous BDSM Pornography post. It was gross, sick, and disgusting. But saying "Person X may have written gross, sick, and disgusting BDSM pornography" is not nearly as offensive as writing gross, sick, and disgusting BDSM pornography.

Let me put it this way: In the recently deleted thread, the *EXACT* same thing that was done to Tony was done to Thomas Smith. A search was done on public internet documents bearing his name. That attack was up for nearly 24 hours, and no one, not *one* person, said that attack was "sick and disgusting". Mostly they thought it was kinda lame (no offense KG...please don't come after me next). Now if doing something to one person is "sick and disgusting" and doing the exact same thing to another person is kinda lame that tells me that it isn't the ACT that is disreputable, it is the RESULTS. One hit pay dirt, the other didn't. But ethically speaking, it was the EXACT SAME ACT.

To be honest, to some extent I agree with you. The previous thread turned my stomach, and it made for uncomfortable reading. But I know that the person who is at fault for creeping me out was not Scouse Mouse or Kimchi Garden...it was that James Anthony Hellmann character of Washington State. 5 days later I still do not know for certain if the allegation of James Anthony Hellmann and Tony Hellmann being one and the same is true, but I know for a fact that I wouldn't want the James Anthony Hellmann who had his license revoked for misconduct with minors teaching in South Korea. Please consider shifting your ire away from SM and KG, and towards someone who may allegedly be much more worthy of your stern condemnation.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rural,

I have no ire towards Scouse Mouse. He presents facts.

KG went after Jason Thomas in a way that I found to be uncalled for.

Others fed off the SM blog post and took things much too far.

My view on this is simple: if a person finds these allegations or troubling facts, they should by all means forward them to the proper authorities in Korea. No one else needs to know because it serves no one. Let the proper authorities investigate and if the allegations are proven true you can be sure the accused will be booted from Korea faster than you can blink. If on the other hand the accused is proven innocent then at least he will not have had his name dragged through the mud. Personally, if this person did the things described in the post on SM blog I would hope he would be barred from teaching anywhere in the world. But, thats not my call. If he is not guilty of these things, people should leave him be.

I do realize Mr Hellmann was in a public position but that does not mean all is fair game. Jason Thomas has been nearly completely quiet yet KG accused him of being racist based on a google search.

Finally, ATEK has or is about to turn things over to new leadership, leave them be and give them a shot at correcting past errors. They have nothing to do with TH and the saga linked to him. He is not even a member anymore.

Thats my two cents on it anyway.
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KimchiGarden



Joined: 19 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:


I do realize Mr Hellmann was in a public position but that does not mean all is fair game. Jason Thomas has been nearly completely quiet yet KG accused him of being racist based on a google search.

Finally, ATEK has or is about to turn things over to new leadership, leave them be and give them a shot at correcting past errors. They have nothing to do with TH and the saga linked to him. He is not even a member anymore.

Thats my two cents on it anyway.


Show me where I called Jason Thomas a racist. Show me. I am calling you a liar here.

ATEK has had plenty of time to correct things and they have done nothing.

I think you should keep your chump change.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well KG

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=158081&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165

Page 11

you made two posts with numerous links about Jason Thomas, calling him anti-semite, anti-american....

Is that not calling someone racist?

Just to be extra clear this is a bit of what you said:

Quote:
Jason Thomas is a founding member of ATEK an organization that claims to represent all English teachers. Yet is a rabid Anti-American, and Anti-Semite. If you are a Jew or American, I doubt he will have your best interests in mind.


If you can explain to me how that is not calling someone racist, you will have my apologies for the mistake.

As for ATEK having had a long time to correct mistakes, I agree. But they just elected new leadership and the founders have agreed to stay out of any leadership positions for a year. Mr Hellmann is out of ATEK completely.

I say give the new leaders a chance to correct the mistakes made before. It is one thing to criticise the ill-advised actions of a few people but quite another to go after an entire association without allowing them the chance to show they can do better....no?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:

...I say give the new leaders a chance to correct the mistakes made before. It is one thing to criticise the ill-advised actions of a few people but quite another to go after an entire association without allowing them the chance to show they can do better....no?



(I didn't want to get involved in a side argument so I only quoted this part of your post.)

However, the problems and questions that were posed to ATEK in the orginal ATEK thread (when it was first announced) still remain. These need to be addressed. You and I pointed out a number of concerns that even a year later ATEK has continued to side-step. Until the leadership can honestly answer these concerns, any doubts about ATEK as a viable organization will remain.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Urban.
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KimchiGarden



Joined: 19 Apr 2009

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
Very well KG

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=158081&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165

Page 11

you made two posts with numerous links about Jason Thomas, calling him anti-semite, anti-american....

Is that not calling someone racist?

Just to be extra clear this is a bit of what you said:

Quote:
Jason Thomas is a founding member of ATEK an organization that claims to represent all English teachers. Yet is a rabid Anti-American, and Anti-Semite. If you are a Jew or American, I doubt he will have your best interests in mind.


If you can explain to me how that is not calling someone racist, you will have my apologies for the mistake.



It clear that you are clueless, so I will help you. No calling someone anti-American or anti-semitic isn't the same as calling them a racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

Think about it this way Pat. Americans and Jews are not terms used to describe a race, but in the case of "American" a nationality, and in the case of "jews" a religion. (I am suprised that you do not know the difference)

Pat where are you from? I really hope that the education where you are from can improve.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow..that was some convulted and twisted logic there KG.

It's ok, if you think calling someone an anti-semite is not calling someone racist. No worries, your call and really no skin off my back. You you called JT a religious bigot. My apologies as that insult is far milder. The point is you went after this person based on what?

Thank you for your concern about my education but I am quite satisfied with my degrees and life experiences (both professional and personal) at this point. I am touched by your concern however. It was most kind.

By the way I am not attacking you so you call off your cyber hounds. I am merely wondering why you would go after JT.

(PS My comment needed editing badly..good grief!)


Last edited by PatrickGHBusan on Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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The Cosmic Hum



Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PatrickGHBusan wrote:
wow..that was some convulted and twisted logic there KG.

Its ok, if you think calling someone an anti-semite is not calling someone racist. No worries, your call and really no skin off my back. It religion prejudice you you called JT a religious bigot. My apologies that insult is far milder. the point is you went after this person based on what?

Thank you for your concern about my education however, but I an quite educated and worledly enough. I am touched by your concern however. It was most kind.

By the way I am not attacking you so you call off your cyber hounds. I am merely wondering why you would go after JT.


...edit before you post. Cool
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