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Tjames426
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Hmm....
Obama gets elected ...
allows the Chinese to attack a US naval vessel in international waters twice, does nothing.
allows a Chinese submarine to follow and damage the USS McCain, does nothing.
Obama delays and delays before allowed elite Navy sharpshooters to kill pirates endangering a brave American ship Captain.
his treasury secretary goes to a Beijing University and gives a speech about the rosy future of the US economy by spending trillions of dollars....he gets laughed at by the student body.
the treasure secretary goes from nation to nation practically begging on his knees asking the China..etc...to keep buy US debt. At the same time, he arrogantly tell those countries the USA will rightly spend itself out of recession.
Obama goes to Europe and tells them about dangers of Global warming and that they should do something, they tell him to f.... off.
Secretary Clinton just did the same in India. She made a speech about the imminent destruction of the world through global warming...they rolled their eyes.
Obama administration just makes a speech indicating to Israel that a Nuclear armed Iran is acceptable to US foreign policy.
Other countries see and hear the President's speech in which he calls those who sacrificially serve, protect, and defend their local US communities, stupid.
Honduras's Congress, Supreme Court, and Armed Forces rise up to defend their democratic Republic to remove a President who wants to change the Constitution so that he can become another life serving dictator as like buddies Castro or Chavez. Obama supports the President removed instead of supporting those who vigorously defended a constitution modeled on the US.
***
LOL
Yeah, he is doing well. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Secretary Clinton just did the same in India. She made a speech about the imminent destruction of the world through global warming...they rolled their eyes.
Obama administration just makes a speech indicating to Israel that a Nuclear armed Iran is acceptable to US foreign policy.
Other countries see and hear the President's speech in which he calls those who sacrificially serve, protect, and defend their local US communities, stupid.
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Interesting. I saw all those stories and had a very different perception. I saw the special interests in India making the same play as the special interests in the US to protect their pile of money. I saw Obama saying that Iran with peaceful nuclear energy was a matter of their own concern. I saw a president saying that one cop in one specific situation made a stupid mistake...and the hyper-sensitive using it to make political capital.
Oh well. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Obama is in a honeymoon period. Its too early to really gauge his popularity. |
I'm disappointed in this response. Normally (on issues other than economics and states rights) Kuros is balanced and fair. I hope you haven't fallen victim to the Obama Derangement Syndrome. |
Saying that less than eight months into a four-year long Presidency, a President might be in a honeymoon period; this elicits a prescription of Obama Derangement Syndrome?
Really?
I don't even think what I said qualifies as a criticism of Obama. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Obama is better liked than Bush and he is a good advertisement for "America the tolerant" but he does little to change post cold war resentment of the US. Bush didn't cause post cold war resentment of the US and Obama can't fix it. |
As far as I know, you are the one (on this board) who says Bush caused the anti-Americanism. Everyone else says Bush exacerbated it. After all, one of Bush's campaign '00 pledges was to reduce anti-Americanism. No need to reduce something that didn't exist until he came in, is there?
Obama has made clear and impressive steps to improve and restore American prestige in the world. This is in addition to the fact that Elmer Fudd could make significant strides in that direction after the debacle of the Bush administration.
Anyone who has done any reading on Iran knows that it has been the most pro-American Moslem state in the region for quite some time. It's rather a shocking fact, I know, but it has been mentioned multiple times over the last decade or so in quite a number of reports. Inconvenient, I know. People who only look at the bomb-Iran media possibly missed it, but otherwise it is well known. (A year or so ago there was some fool who was stupid enough to say on a thread here that there was no Iranian opposition to their government.)
Obama is probably doing better in foreign policy than he is domestic policy-wise. (Note: People have a marked tendency to tout polls that support them and damn polls that show they are not popular. It's exactly the same at the personal level. If you have a good reputation, then the respect of other people matters. If you have a bad reputation, then who the hell cares what other people think?) [I'm waiting for the doctoral dissertation to be published that demonstrates that Cheyney was the real president at least during the first term.]
It matters a great deal what other people think of the US in terms of cooperation on issues of joint concern.
| Quote: |
| Obama is in a honeymoon period. Its too early to really gauge his popularity. |
I'm disappointed in this response. Normally (on issues other than economics and states rights) Kuros is balanced and fair. I hope you haven't fallen victim to the Obama Derangement Syndrome. |
As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference.
You don't see policy changes by any nation hostile to the US. You don't see Russia and China helping out at the UN.
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| It matters a great deal what other people think of the US in terms of cooperation on issues of joint concern. |
Furthermore you see little cooperation with the US on issues of joint concern.
Besides Obama has the benefit more friendly goverments in Germany and in France. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
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| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
The Bush admin couldn't eve get Turkey onside for the Iraq War. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Lets just make sure all the Obama lovers see this again.
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Hmm....
Obama gets elected ...
allows the Chinese to attack a US naval vessel in international waters twice, does nothing.
allows a Chinese submarine to follow and damage the USS McCain, does nothing.
Obama delays and delays before allowed elite Navy sharpshooters to kill pirates endangering a brave American ship Captain.
his treasury secretary goes to a Beijing University and gives a speech about the rosy future of the US economy by spending trillions of dollars....he gets laughed at by the student body.
the treasure secretary goes from nation to nation practically begging on his knees asking the China..etc...to keep buy US debt. At the same time, he arrogantly tell those countries the USA will rightly spend itself out of recession.
Obama goes to Europe and tells them about dangers of Global warming and that they should do something, they tell him to f.... off.
Secretary Clinton just did the same in India. She made a speech about the imminent destruction of the world through global warming...they rolled their eyes.
Obama administration just makes a speech indicating to Israel that a Nuclear armed Iran is acceptable to US foreign policy.
Other countries see and hear the President's speech in which he calls those who sacrificially serve, protect, and defend their local US communities, stupid.
Honduras's Congress, Supreme Court, and Armed Forces rise up to defend their democratic Republic to remove a President who wants to change the Constitution so that he can become another life serving dictator as like buddies Castro or Chavez. Obama supports the President removed instead of supporting those who vigorously defended a constitution modeled on the US.
***
LOL
Yeah, he is doing well. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Let's just make sure all the Obama haters see this again.
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Obama has made clear and impressive steps to improve and restore American prestige in the world. This is in addition to the fact that Elmer Fudd could make significant strides in that direction after the debacle of the Bush administration.
Anyone who has done any reading on Iran knows that it has been the most pro-American Moslem state in the region for quite some time. It's rather a shocking fact, I know, but it has been mentioned multiple times over the last decade or so in quite a number of reports. Inconvenient, I know. People who only look at the bomb-Iran media possibly missed it, but otherwise it is well known. (A year or so ago there was some fool who was stupid enough to say on a thread here that there was no Iranian opposition to their government.) |
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ubermenzch
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Location: bundang, south korea
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
Lets just make sure all the Obama lovers see this again.
| Quote: |
Hmm....
Obama gets elected ...
allows the Chinese to attack a US naval vessel in international waters twice, does nothing.
allows a Chinese submarine to follow and damage the USS McCain, does nothing.
Obama delays and delays before allowed elite Navy sharpshooters to kill pirates endangering a brave American ship Captain.
his treasury secretary goes to a Beijing University and gives a speech about the rosy future of the US economy by spending trillions of dollars....he gets laughed at by the student body.
the treasure secretary goes from nation to nation practically begging on his knees asking the China..etc...to keep buy US debt. At the same time, he arrogantly tell those countries the USA will rightly spend itself out of recession.
Obama goes to Europe and tells them about dangers of Global warming and that they should do something, they tell him to f.... off.
Secretary Clinton just did the same in India. She made a speech about the imminent destruction of the world through global warming...they rolled their eyes.
Obama administration just makes a speech indicating to Israel that a Nuclear armed Iran is acceptable to US foreign policy.
Other countries see and hear the President's speech in which he calls those who sacrificially serve, protect, and defend their local US communities, stupid.
Honduras's Congress, Supreme Court, and Armed Forces rise up to defend their democratic Republic to remove a President who wants to change the Constitution so that he can become another life serving dictator as like buddies Castro or Chavez. Obama supports the President removed instead of supporting those who vigorously defended a constitution modeled on the US.
***
LOL
Yeah, he is doing well. |
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I've a quick question. If I call this insultingly simplistic, does that make me an Obama lover too? If so, how can I overcome this unfortunate deficiency? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
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| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
there is a lot more to that than meets the eye. It was a small concession by Russia that can be easily withdrawn. Plus do you really think that Russia doesn't have an interesting in seeing the US fight the Taliban?
But I will PM you the proof of what really went on in the summit. So you can see for yourself .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bc3ot8sYro&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stratfor.com%2Fanalysis%2F20090708_video_russia_without_much&feature=player_embedded
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Of some importance, but not as fundamental as the previous issues, was the question of whether Russia will allow U.S. arms shipments to Afghanistan through Russian territory. This issue became important last winter when Taliban attacks on U.S. supply routes through Pakistan intensified, putting the viability of those routes in question. In recent months the Russians have accepted the transit of nonlethal materiel through Russia, but not arms.
Even before the summit, the Russians made a concession on this point, giving the United States the right to transit military equipment via Russian airspace. This was a significant policy change designed to demonstrate Russia�s flexibility. At the same time, the step is not as significant as it appeared. The move cost the Russians little under the circumstances, and is easily revoked. And while the United States might use the route, the route is always subject to Russian pressure, meaning the United States is not going to allow a strategic dependence to develop. Moreover, the U.S. need is not as apparent now as it was a few months ago. And finally, a Talibanized Afghanistan is not in the Russian interest. That Russia did not grant the U.S. request last February merely reveals how bad U.S.-Russian relations were at the time. Conversely, the Russian concession on the issue signals that U.S.-Russian relations have improved. The concession was all the more significant in that it came after Obama praised Medvedev for his openness and criticized Putin as having one foot in the Cold War, clearly an attempt to play the two Russian leaders off each other. |
And the US will be expected to give something up in return.
Like no arms sales to Georgia.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124835911309475853.html
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:25 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
The Bush admin couldn't eve get Turkey onside for the Iraq War. |
It was in Turkey's interest not to get involved. Obama couldn't have gotten them on board either. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
there is a lot more to that than meets the eye. It was a small concession by Russia that can be easily withdrawn. |
You said zero strategic difference. Now you say small. What's next?
See, here's the difference between now and then: even when policies happen to be the same when a nation cooperates with the US, there is less domestic blowback when it happens, and less divisiveness over whether to go along or not. Don't forget the manufactured split between "New" and "Old" Europe that didn't have to happen. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As I said before post cold war resentment of the US was already pretty bad before Bush was president. So the US got back its fair weather friends, whoopie do.Makes zero strategic difference. |
Yeah, pssh. All Russia did this month was agree to allow 4500 American flights a year over its airspace to ship weapons to Afghanistan. Big deal.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hGt9eWJWNEfvPUAbqIytFwd1qu6w |
there is a lot more to that than meets the eye. It was a small concession by Russia that can be easily withdrawn. |
You said zero strategic difference. Now you say small. What's next?
See, here's the difference between now and then: even when policies happen to be the same when a nation cooperates with the US, there is less domestic blowback when it happens, and less divisiveness over whether to go along or not. Don't forget the manufactured split between "New" and "Old" Europe that didn't have to happen. |
Ok very small , zero is an absolute. If Russia makes concessions on Iran or North Korea or Georgia then you win. Until then...
If Russia is more helpful it is cause Obama is less supportive of Georgia than Bush was and not for other reasons.
"Old Europe and New Europe" happened in large part because Shroder and Chirac were two leaders who wanted to see the US cut down to size and made it policy to see it done. During their time in office France and Germany were in fact rivals and not allies of the US.
All Rumsfeld did when he said old and new Europe was saying out loud whatever one knew.
and it wasn't Bush who set Chirac and Schroder off against the US. They were anti US when Clinton was in office. If you don't believe be go see their reaction when the Clinton administration asked them for help in dealing with Iran ,Cuba and Iraq. Or their reaction to the GM /Honeywell merger.
Bush began to get help from Germany and France almost from the moment that Chirac and Schorder were gone from office. If Obama gets help from them it will be cause Chirac and Shroder are gone , not cause Bush is. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I'm disappointed in this response. Normally (on issues other than economics and states rights) Kuros is balanced and fair. I hope you haven't fallen victim to the Obama Derangement Syndrome. |
Isn't it funny how "the other guy" is always balanced and fair except when he disagrees with you? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: |
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I will say admit that it can be a hard thing to quantify what exactly a reducation in anti-Americanism has wrought, in terms of actual political repsonses to American policies.
Joo wrote:
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| Bush began to get help from Germany and France almost from the moment that Chirac and Schorder were gone from office. If Obama gets help from them it will be cause Chirac and Shroder are gone , not cause Bush is. |
There might be some truth to this. One thing I've noticed is that how pro or anti-American a nation's foreign-policy is tends to depend on which party(or, in the case of France, which faction of a party) is in power. If Harper's Conservatives had been in power in Canada during the early '00s, Canadian expats in Korea would not have been crowing nearly so loud about how much more enlightened Canadian foreign-policy was compared to the US.
But still. If you're someone who thinks that widespread anti-Americanism among global public opinion is bad for the USA, you pretty much have to acknowledge that Obama is a big improvement, even if it's difficult to prove that a particular tangible outcome is different than it would have been under a Republican.
Mith wrote:
| Quote: |
| See, here's the difference between now and then: even when policies happen to be the same when a nation cooperates with the US, there is less domestic blowback when it happens, and less divisiveness over whether to go along or not. |
Yeah, check out the text from these Liberal Party Of Canada attack ads from 2006...
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"Who paid for Stephen Harper's rise to the head of the party? We don't know. He refuses to reveal his donors. What do you suppose he's hiding? We do know he's very popular with right wingers in the U.S. They have money, maybe they helped him. We just don't know. He just won't say."
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"Stephen Harper spoke to a secret, ultra right-wing American think tank. In a Montreal hotel, off limits to press and public, he said, 'America, and particularly your conservative movement, is a light and an inspiration to people in this country and across the world.' No. We did not make that up. We're not allowed to make stuff up."
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"Here's what Stephen Harper told some of his American pals about Canada's unemployed: 'Don't feel particularly bad for these people. They don't feel bad about it themselves. Not as long as they're receiving generous social assistance and unemployment insurance.' Not exactly the kind of compassion we're looking for in a Prime Minister, is it? A social safety net is a fundamental Canadian value, Mr. Harper."
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"From the Washington Times, Dec. 2, 2005: 'Canada may elect the most pro-American leader in the Western world. Harper is pro-Iraq war, anti-Kyoto and socially conservative. Bush's new best friend is the poster boy for his ideal foreign leader. A Harper victory will put a smile on George W. Bush's face.' Well, at least someone will be happy, eh?"
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Now, it can be debated how effective these ads were for the Liberals. They didn't win that election, but they DID manage to keep Harper from a majority, forcing him to rely on the left-leaning BQ for support in the Commons. And you can bet dollars to donuts that the Libs only ran those ads because they knew that, for a lot of Canadians at that time, "US = Bush". I guarantee you the Liberals will not be running such ads with Obama as president.
link |
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