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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| What gets me is the people on both sides of the issue painting it as a "Muslim issue." It's quite evident that it's not the religion driving FGM and "honor killings." They're holdovers from the culture that preceded the Islamic Conquest. And not valuable holdovers, either. |
Exactly. When Mohammad started his little cult, he wasn't operating in a feminist paradise. In pre-Islamic times, the plight of Arab women was pretty horrendous. Women were essentially chattel. In fact, Mohammad was a radical feminist in his time, even demanding that daughters also receive an inheritance - something that astonished society at that time. He also put an end to the killing of infant baby girls - something that was prevalent in Arab societies, and declared women equal to men - quite revolutionary given where he was (in time as well as space). Arab culture has always been a dreadful place to grow up female. The Islamic religion mitigated that somewhat. However, many Arab societies have tried to cling to anti-female practices, and tried to cherry pick quotes from the Koran to justify it. Other practices are simply not prescribed in the Koran, even though they are assumed by many outsiders to be Islamic practices. An example of that is female genital mutilation. It's not prescribed in the Koran, and is also practised by Christians. These are traditional practices, that continue from pre-Islamic times. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Why not hindu 'anti-woman hate' for example? That's pretty foul - although at least burning widows at their husband's funerals is no longer legal, thankfully. |
Yeah, fine. That too. White, bourgeois feminists don't have the guts to take on any non-white culture. They're chickenshit. |
OK. Can you please enlighten me, and explain to me how white bourgeois feminists will help non-white culture by spouting off about Muslims?
Please outline for me in layman terms, how this will assist female Muslims. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Big Bird wrote: |
| I'd also wager that it's not Islam itself that causes men to be c***s to their womenfolk |
The view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture and directly cited in the Qur'aan. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. No, the right to kill wives and daughters wasn't prescribed, but females as property certainly was, and Islam therefore takes some semblance of blame if males take the concept of property to its logical conclusion and use it - including destroy it - as they see fit.
There are thousands of women killed per year in honor killings and, yes, there are also thousands killed by Hindus because women's dowries are considered insufficient. Obviously, in these grotesque religions, murdering women can be perceived as excusable or understandable (something to remind theists of when they insist - as they always do - that decency is inseparable from theism. Perhaps one day, in hundreds of years perhaps because progress here is slow, the penny will drop).
If 5000 women per year are murdered in honor killings, the levels of general miscellaneous violence on women in the Muslim World (and among Hindus) must be immense, because this honor killings stat, alone, is far in excess of general violence against women in any country I'd visit. This is remarkable because of the level of severity, premeditation, meticulousness, excusability and involvement from other family members. This severity of violence is very rare, but overwhelmingly motivated by religion.
| Quote: |
| Secular women-haters will find their excuses elsewhere - and sure enough they'll find them. You're not really getting to the underlying cause if you accept that Islam/Hinduism/Whateverism is to blame. |
The rate of premeditated murder of wives/daughters with remorseless excusability - involving family members - is exceptionally rare and perhaps even nonexistent in secular societies.
As such, it hardly seems irrational to set aside the Muslim World for special criticism. People are understandably appalled by the severity and the frequency of this vile male violence against their own wives and daughters. |
White men (even middle-class men) regularly murder their wives in the West. They are often given very light sentences too - though in recent times feminists have worked to change this.
White male judges have often expressed great empathy for white males who just couldn't take any more of their white wife's nagging. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| ELGORDO wrote: |
| You don't hear a word from U.S. Feminists on stuff like this because they are leftist first and only use the "sexist" charge when it helps their agenda |
I think the reason for this is that they are scared of being called racists. That's deeply erroneous, of course - we know that, but any criticism whatsoever of nonwhite people being racist (even if one's criticism concerns religion and not race) is itself a concept that originated in leftism.
More ludicrously still, the refusal to hold immigrant cultures to the same standards of debate as 'white' cultures is, itself, deeply racist, because people move to Western, secular countries precisely to enjoy those kinds of things and are denied for no other reason than their foreignness. Don't impose our culture on them even in our own countries - it might cause offense. Immigrants' right to not be offended by white Westerners is, presumably, a more urgent right than women's rights to live unmolested by Muslim male yobs.
| ytuque wrote: |
| Women getting stoned to death? Who cares. Thats just the richness of diversity. |
Exactly! And as for FGM.....well, that just means the male has to try harder to satisfy the woman, making him a much better lover! |
Well, I've never taken women's studies, or joined a 'feminist organisation' - but I have never read or met any of these apparently numerous feminists who insist that it is alright for a man to treat a woman like crap as long as neither of them are white. I think it's a load of old bollocks, in fact. A conservative wet dream. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Big Bird wrote: |
| I'd also wager that it's not Islam itself that causes men to be c***s to their womenfolk |
The view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture and directly cited in the Qur'aan. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. No, the right to kill wives and daughters wasn't prescribed, but females as property certainly was, and Islam therefore takes some semblance of blame if males take the concept of property to its logical conclusion and use it - including destroy it - as they see fit.
There are thousands of women killed per year in honor killings and, yes, there are also thousands killed by Hindus because women's dowries are considered insufficient. Obviously, in these grotesque religions, murdering women can be perceived as excusable or understandable (something to remind theists of when they insist - as they always do - that decency is inseparable from theism. Perhaps one day, in hundreds of years perhaps because progress here is slow, the penny will drop).
If 5000 women per year are murdered in honor killings, the levels of general miscellaneous violence on women in the Muslim World (and among Hindus) must be immense, because this honor killings stat, alone, is far in excess of general violence against women in any country I'd visit. This is remarkable because of the level of severity, premeditation, meticulousness, excusability and involvement from other family members. This severity of violence is very rare, but overwhelmingly motivated by religion.
| Quote: |
| Secular women-haters will find their excuses elsewhere - and sure enough they'll find them. You're not really getting to the underlying cause if you accept that Islam/Hinduism/Whateverism is to blame. |
The rate of premeditated murder of wives/daughters with remorseless excusability - involving family members - is exceptionally rare and perhaps even nonexistent in secular societies.
As such, it hardly seems irrational to set aside the Muslim World for special criticism. People are understandably appalled by the severity and the frequency of this vile male violence against their own wives and daughters. |
White men (even middle-class men) regularly murder their wives in the West. They are often given very light sentences too - though in recent times feminists have worked to change this.
White male judges have often expressed great empathy for white males who just couldn't take any more of their white wife's nagging. |
I just laughed out loud.
You really don't get the point at all, do you.
As if premeditated, coldblooded murder by a sane party is regarded as anything other than an inexcusable act western law.
Assuming your anecdote is true, what religious text were these judges citing in order to support their appalling verdicts?
And the fact that a secular society like this allows "feminists to work to change this", as you say, demonstrates how much easier it is to improve women's lot when law, justice, and morality are not based on a desert religion/culture that unapologetically subordinates women. Women's testimony is worth a fraction of that of a man's; polygamy is freely available; wifebeating and stoning of women to death are sanctioned by God in Islam. Why not just admit this and move on?
Last edited by cwflaneur on Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Why not hindu 'anti-woman hate' for example? That's pretty foul - although at least burning widows at their husband's funerals is no longer legal, thankfully. |
Yeah, fine. That too. White, bourgeois feminists don't have the guts to take on any non-white culture. They're chickenshit. |
OK. Can you please enlighten me, and explain to me how white bourgeois feminists will help non-white culture by spouting off about Muslims?
Please outline for me in layman terms, how this will assist female Muslims. |
How did they improve the lot of white women? You better figure it out. The continent is racing to muslim dominance. Best, figure out how to civilize them pronto tonto. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think Bid Bird's underlying belief is that there's really no basic difference between life for a woman in Islam and life for a woman in the secular world, especially the West. Dreadful things happen to women everywhere, therefore, there isn't anything uniquely problematic about Islam that we should be particularly concerned about.
It's remarkably similar to the sort of apologetics for the Soviet system that pseudo-intellectuals constantly attempted during the Cold War. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
I think Bid Bird's underlying belief is that there's really no basic difference between life for a woman in Islam and life for a woman in the secular world, especially the West. Dreadful things happen to women everywhere, therefore, there isn't anything about Islam that we should be particularly concerned about.
It's remarkably similar to the sort of apologetics for the Soviet system that pseudo-intellectuals constantly attempted during the Cold War. |
I think you have very little idea about 'my beliefs.'
But attacking Islam is not going to improve women's rights - there or anywhere.
Can you detail for me how a white feminist writing a paper on Muslim misogyny is going to change anything? Please talk me through how that will work, and see if you can persuade me. It is my belief that wanking on about Islam will do JACKSHIT to improving Muslim women's lot. It is muslim women (and their sympathetic brothers) who have to sort this out for themselves - just as European and American women have to fight for the rights we have gained, so must they. We cannot do it for them.
Or can we? Please explain to me how we Western women can achieve equality for non-Western women. I'm willing to listen to you, but neither you nor mises have answered this question. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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Reminds me of Koreans and their 'private matter' attitude when a man beats the living hell out of his wife on the street. islam is not longer something foreign. It will play a massive role in the future of Europe. On a 50 year or so timeline, it is the future of Europe. You can't cry 'difference' anymore. You own this. Best get to work.
And muslim hatred of women is responsible for ALL violent rapes in Olso.
| Quote: |
The Oslo Police have over the past three years investigated 41 cases of aggravated sexual assault, which resulted in rape. All of them were carried out by non-western immigrants to Norway.
The police now urge that more efforts be put into preventive measures among men with immigrant background.
The police have investigated all reported cases of aggravated sexual assault over the past three years, and have gained a clear imprssion of the offenders:
Most of the rapists have a Kurdish or African background, NRK reports. The cases of aggravated sexual assults all have one thing in common, namely the use of gross violence. |
http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21900/1/
All. Or maybe all those violently raped women should lay back and celebrate diversity because, really, what can be done? It's just their culture. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Bird wrote: |
OK. Can you please enlighten me, and explain to me how white bourgeois feminists will help non-white culture by spouting off about Muslims?
Please outline for me in layman terms, how this will assist female Muslims. |
This is a relevant issue because it isn't us vs them, here vs there anymore. Muslims in great numbers are now in the West, bringing their practices and values with them.
What can white bourgeois feminists do to help? They can fight alongside everyone else in the support of one law for everyone. A number of judicial verdicts in Europe have resulted in reduced sentences or the refusal of divorce in cases where women have been murdered or beaten. Why? Because the judges were taking the principles of multiculturalism and putting them directly into practice.
Many European intellectuals, on both the Left and the Right, are becoming extremely critical of it. And it's a damn good thing that they are.
Please listen to some leftists who have better heads on their shoulders and be edified:
No Sharia: One Law For All
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQlZNZpdmfU&feature=related
(watch the whole thing, but there's an actual, living, breathing white bourgeois feminist at the end of that video who puts your attitude to shame).
Last edited by cwflaneur on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:25 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Big Bird wrote: |
| I'd also wager that it's not Islam itself that causes men to be c***s to their womenfolk |
The view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture and directly cited in the Qur'aan. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. No, the right to kill wives and daughters wasn't prescribed, but females as property certainly was, and Islam therefore takes some semblance of blame if males take the concept of property to its logical conclusion and use it - including destroy it - as they see fit.
There are thousands of women killed per year in honor killings and, yes, there are also thousands killed by Hindus because women's dowries are considered insufficient. Obviously, in these grotesque religions, murdering women can be perceived as excusable or understandable (something to remind theists of when they insist - as they always do - that decency is inseparable from theism. Perhaps one day, in hundreds of years perhaps because progress here is slow, the penny will drop).
If 5000 women per year are murdered in honor killings, the levels of general miscellaneous violence on women in the Muslim World (and among Hindus) must be immense, because this honor killings stat, alone, is far in excess of general violence against women in any country I'd visit. This is remarkable because of the level of severity, premeditation, meticulousness, excusability and involvement from other family members. This severity of violence is very rare, but overwhelmingly motivated by religion.
| Quote: |
| Secular women-haters will find their excuses elsewhere - and sure enough they'll find them. You're not really getting to the underlying cause if you accept that Islam/Hinduism/Whateverism is to blame. |
The rate of premeditated murder of wives/daughters with remorseless excusability - involving family members - is exceptionally rare and perhaps even nonexistent in secular societies.
As such, it hardly seems irrational to set aside the Muslim World for special criticism. People are understandably appalled by the severity and the frequency of this vile male violence against their own wives and daughters. |
White men (even middle-class men) regularly murder their wives in the West. |
I realize that. I feel I already discussed it - and the lack of any equivalence that one might draw - in the comments you quoted. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Can you detail for me how a white feminist writing a paper on Muslim misogyny is going to change anything? Please talk me through how that will work, and see if you can persuade me. It is my belief that wanking on about Islam will do JACKSHIT to improving Muslim women's lot. It is muslim women (and their sympathetic brothers) who have to sort this out for themselves - just as European and American women have to fight for the rights we have gained, so must they. We cannot do it for them.
Or can we? Please explain to me how we Western women can achieve equality for non-Western women. I'm willing to listen to you, but neither you nor mises have answered this question. |
See my previous post. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
White men (even middle-class men) regularly murder their wives in the West. They are often given very light sentences too - though in recent times feminists have worked to change this.
White male judges have often expressed great empathy for white males who just couldn't take any more of their white wife's nagging. |
A) you're wrong B) your logic is skewed. What you're saying is:
"Horrendous treatment of women in muslim households is not worthy of discussion, because western women are also mistreated at the same prevalence!"
This is completely false, and even if it were remotely true, how does one argument qualify the other? And do you want some facts?? 10 seconds of googling crime stats puts your logic to shame!
| Big_Bird wrote: |
Well, I've never taken women's studies, or joined a 'feminist organisation' - but I have never read or met any of these apparently numerous feminists who insist that it is alright for a man to treat a woman like crap as long as neither of them are white. I think it's a load of old bollocks, in fact. A conservative wet dream. |
Sergio is smarter than you are. What you are failing to understand is that western multi-culti cultrual relativism trumps the horrors of islamic culturalized immigrants. Therefore, when muslim men are accused of subjugating their wives, "racism!" immediately comes next. Thank the multi-cultural labour-party welfare state for this.
| mises wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
OK. Can you please enlighten me, and explain to me how white bourgeois feminists will help non-white culture by spouting off about Muslims?
Please outline for me in layman terms, how this will assist female Muslims. |
How did they improve the lot of white women? You better figure it out. The continent is racing to muslim dominance. Best, figure out how to civilize them pronto tonto. |
Right! Or try embracing the 21st century! The Koran CAN be suited to the modern world, but strong voices are needed, Big Bird! You are the asnwer! Start by reading ayaan Hirsi Ali's book; it's chock full of what you crave! If Hirsi Ali manages to free only a dozen women from the clutches of Islam, then she's doing great! Also, we can only do our part to make sure that muslim women in the WEST are cared for. Check an Amsterdam women's shelter for starts. (There's another way for you to contribute, big bird!)
fyi: women's shelters are sparse in Saudi Arabia, and hardly "shelter" the woman from harm!
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?storyid=1093252267
With the rise of muslim immigrants, western nations are seeing MORE women's shelters being built, not fewer. Is this progress??
(btw Sorry to hijack this thread, but bigbird's nonsense cannot go unrecognized) |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: ... |
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Honour killings have their basis in tribalism more than they do in Islam.
It's like trying to pin witch burnings on the Pope.
Nevertheless, the sheer amount of chuckleheads who claim to understand Islam is as alarming as any militant Christianity du jour, and be sure to include modern african versions of Christianity when you're talking bout honour burnings, you anthropologists. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
Honour killings have their basis in tribalism more than they do in Islam.
It's like trying to pin witch burnings on the Pope.
Nevertheless, the sheer amount of chuckleheads who claim to understand Islam is as alarming as any militant Christianity du jour, and be sure to include modern african versions of Christianity when you're talking bout honour burnings, you anthropologists. |
Sorry, you're missing the point.
It's a question of whether honour killings, which are holdovers from tribal values (as you say), are more likely to happen in a developed-world context within a population who continue to follow an aggressively woman-hating religion... or among people who do not. And not only killings, but all acts of violence.
There are those who deny that the texts of Islam have any misogynist character whatsoever; there are also those who excuse or minimalise this content. Both are wrong; all the evidence is against them.
This is an issue because we're not talking about remote populations outside the sphere of western influence. We're talking about immigrant populations within western countries.
Those who blow the multicultural horn of non-interference are making the mistake of siding with the most backwards and reactionary forces in these cultures. The alternative is simple: one law for everyone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU0rcFAX730 |
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